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Post by Forever Blue on Oct 15, 2019 0:25:12 GMT
Well done England for sticking by your convictions and having the courage to take things a step further, you have now set a precedent. It is nice to see that for once that an international team had the courage to challenge this sort of unwelcome behaviour and stand up against it. I really like Gareth Southgate he backs his squad in a really calm way but makes his presence known, it was also good to see a member of the fa also interviewed about the problems as well. Work still needs to be done at home as well but it is a start and I congratulate them for that.
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Post by Lobster on Oct 15, 2019 6:38:10 GMT
I think what's amazing is how overt it still is in countries like Bulgaria. They've already had sanctions against them for racism, and they've let in a sizable group of young lads all wearing black hoodies, and for half a game they've let them engage in the most textbook, unimaginative racist behaviour like monkey noises and Nazi salutes. And while it is a minority, it seems like the minority is tolerated and not condemned. I don't think their manager covered himself in glory by insisting before the game that the country had no racism problem, and appearing to just fold his arms and shake his head during the game as though England were whinging about nothing. Fair play to their captain at least for trying to speak to the crowd.
Part of me was hoping England would walk off the pitch last night, but it's a success that their actions and the UEFA protocol at least got the worst offenders to leave.
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Post by 1967blue Chester Lads on Oct 15, 2019 8:26:30 GMT
Well done England for sticking by your convictions and having the courage to take things a step further, you have now set a precedent. It is nice to see that for once that an international team had the courage to challenge this sort of unwelcome behaviour and stand up against it. I really like Gareth Southgate he backs his squad in a really calm way but makes his presence known, it was also good to see a member of the fa also interviewed about the problems as well. Work still needs to be done at home as well but it is a start and I congratulate them for that. They were racist at the Czech game aswell but only heard it outside the ground when a group of there fans were making the monkey gesture to some coloured England fans. The police soon rounded the culprits up but didnt see what they did to them. The police were really on top of trouble from both sets of supporters there. Didn't look like the police were bothered in Bulgaria tho. It's a disgrace
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Post by Si on Oct 15, 2019 10:22:17 GMT
Even after the game, Bulgarian officials and journalists are giving the impressions that it's England being spoilt brats and moaning about nothing. It's hard to see how deep rooted beliefs in a country can be suddenly changed. Eastern Europe seems to be rife with it. I've been to Bulgaria and whilst I enjoyed it, it's obvious it's a pretty backwards place and outside of the towns/cities there is very little modern infrastructure so you start to wonder if there is enough education filtering through to young people about tolerance of others. It's a problem beyond football, but I guess the way of stamping it out of football would be heavy fines and tournament bans, which would be a shame as I'm sure there's plenty of decent football supporters there that can watch a game without being a complete buffoon, not to mention their footballers who are deprived of the opportunity to participate in the pinnacle of their careers at major tournaments.
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Post by Lobster on Oct 15, 2019 11:09:58 GMT
I think bystander effect over there just seems a lot more evident. Make no mistake, we have people in England who would behave like that at football if they could get away with it, but we've educated 99% that it's wrong - including many who might have joined in with it 30-40 years ago. Over there, they seem to let it slide, either because they're frightened, in awe of them, or they just don't see it as much of an issue.
I see that the Bulgarian prime minister is calling on their head of FA to resign. That's probably what's needed, intervention from outside of the sport. I found it a sad night really as a standout memory for me from when I really started to love football was Bulgaria reaching the World Cup semis in 1994, beating Germany on the way. 25 years on they look like dinosaurs on and off the pitch.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 11:12:49 GMT
Even after the game, Bulgarian officials and journalists are giving the impressions that it's England being spoilt brats and moaning about nothing. It's hard to see how deep rooted beliefs in a country can be suddenly changed. Eastern Europe seems to be rife with it. I've been to Bulgaria and whilst I enjoyed it, it's obvious it's a pretty backwards place and outside of the towns/cities there is very little modern infrastructure so you start to wonder if there is enough education filtering through to young people about tolerance of others. It's a problem beyond football, but I guess the way of stamping it out of football would be heavy fines and tournament bans, which would be a shame as I'm sure there's plenty of decent football supporters there that can watch a game without being a complete buffoon, not to mention their footballers who are deprived of the opportunity to participate in the pinnacle of their careers at major tournaments. I think you're right, Si There appears to be very much a "head in the sand" attitude not just in Bulgaria but many other parts of Eastern Europe. Until they admit that they have a problem and are prepared to act, then I really can't see the situation improving in the short term. (It did cross my mind, albeit briefly, that, maybe, just maybe, the authorities are quite willing to turn a blind eye because they, themselves, have racist tendencies or beliefs. I've no evidence, just was a passing thought but there does seem to be a "not us, guv" attitude.) In my humble opinion last night, and recent similar events, demonstrate that the approach of nominal fines, closed door games etc are not really achieving much. Much as it would hurt the genuine fans, a lengthy ban for the international team, and possibly club teams in Europe, might be the next move. Not 1 or 2 games, but 2,3 5 years. How much was the England club's ban in the 80s a catalyst for change, for example? Unfortunately, UEFA is so weak and politics/money so influential, that I'm not holding my breath that severe action will be forthcoming. Even then, going back to my (and Si's) point - unless the country's culture changes, maybe even expulsion may not prove enough. Sad times in the 21st century
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Oct 15, 2019 11:41:17 GMT
Quite clearly there is a problem in many countries, including our own as the disgusting treatment of Raheem Sterling in a Premier League game, the rise of the Democratic Football (Fascists) Lads Alliance and other well-reported incidents at our grounds and involving our fans abroad, demonstrates - nothing is really being done to a level that would have a serious impact. Paltry fines and behind closed door matches are clearly not working and the authorities need to start cancelling matches, deducting points and kicking teams out. Of course, football governance can only go so far and as Si says there needs to be a root and branch overhaul of education about this all around the world - hate crimes have risen in Britain over the last six years, so we clearly aren’t the bastion of morals when it comes to xenophobia, but we would like to think the majority of our public are a little more educated than those in Eastern Europe.
Difficult. It’s a societal issue and football is just a microcosm of it.
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Post by Churton Blue on Oct 15, 2019 12:13:17 GMT
Even after the game, Bulgarian officials and journalists are giving the impressions that it's England being spoilt brats and moaning about nothing. It's hard to see how deep rooted beliefs in a country can be suddenly changed. Eastern Europe seems to be rife with it. I've been to Bulgaria and whilst I enjoyed it, it's obvious it's a pretty backwards place and outside of the towns/cities there is very little modern infrastructure so you start to wonder if there is enough education filtering through to young people about tolerance of others. It's a problem beyond football, but I guess the way of stamping it out of football would be heavy fines and tournament bans, which would be a shame as I'm sure there's plenty of decent football supporters there that can watch a game without being a complete buffoon, not to mention their footballers who are deprived of the opportunity to participate in the pinnacle of their careers at major tournaments. I think you're right, Si There appears to be very much a "head in the sand" attitude not just in Bulgaria but many other parts of Eastern Europe. Until they admit that they have a problem and are prepared to act, then I really can't see the situation improving in the short term. (It did cross my mind, albeit briefly, that, maybe, just maybe, the authorities are quite willing to turn a blind eye because they, themselves, have racist tendencies or beliefs. I've no evidence, just was a passing thought but there does seem to be a "not us, guv" attitude.) In my humble opinion last night, and recent similar events, demonstrate that the approach of nominal fines, closed door games etc are not really achieving much. Much as it would hurt the genuine fans, a lengthy ban for the international team, and possibly club teams in Europe, might be the next move. Not 1 or 2 games, but 2,3 5 years. How much was the England club's ban in the 80s a catalyst for change, for example? Unfortunately, UEFA is so weak and politics/money so influential, that I'm not holding my breath that severe action will be forthcoming. Even then, going back to my (and Si's) point - unless the country's culture changes, maybe even expulsion may not prove enough. Sad times in the 21st century Two very good posts that are hard do argue with. I am afraid that racism appears endemic in Eastern Europe and with quasi fascist regimes in Poland and Hungary and white supremacists in the ruling coalition in Estonia it is going politically backwards very fast. All these countries are in the EU and I am shocked and disgusted that a blind eye is taken by the progressive countries in the EU to this state of affairs. Football is merely symptomatic of society at large and last night showed that making nazi salutes and racist chanting will not get you arrested in Bulgaria.
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Post by Neil Hunt Nonsense Potter on Oct 15, 2019 12:37:49 GMT
Lots of racist supporters follow England too. They are just too clever/scared to profess their fascist leanings in front of TV/CCTV cameras. In the UK those actions last night would have resulted in police moving in and arresting the ringleaders, then picking the rest up with a nice 5am wake up call following CCTV study. Our police have driven them underground, but don't kid yourselves there were no England fans agreeing with those disgusting chants last night.
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Post by eyeswideopen on Oct 15, 2019 12:38:02 GMT
I think you're right, Si There appears to be very much a "head in the sand" attitude not just in Bulgaria but many other parts of Eastern Europe. Until they admit that they have a problem and are prepared to act, then I really can't see the situation improving in the short term. (It did cross my mind, albeit briefly, that, maybe, just maybe, the authorities are quite willing to turn a blind eye because they, themselves, have racist tendencies or beliefs. I've no evidence, just was a passing thought but there does seem to be a "not us, guv" attitude.) In my humble opinion last night, and recent similar events, demonstrate that the approach of nominal fines, closed door games etc are not really achieving much. Much as it would hurt the genuine fans, a lengthy ban for the international team, and possibly club teams in Europe, might be the next move. Not 1 or 2 games, but 2,3 5 years. How much was the England club's ban in the 80s a catalyst for change, for example? Unfortunately, UEFA is so weak and politics/money so influential, that I'm not holding my breath that severe action will be forthcoming. Even then, going back to my (and Si's) point - unless the country's culture changes, maybe even expulsion may not prove enough. Sad times in the 21st century Two very good posts that are hard do argue with. I am afraid that racism appears endemic in Eastern Europe and with quasi fascist regimes in Poland and Hungary and white supremacists in the ruling coalition in Estonia it is going politically backwards very fast. All these countries are in the EU and I am shocked and disgusted that a blind eye is taken by the progressive countries in the EU to this state of affairs. Football is merely symptomatic of society at large and last night showed that making nazi salutes and racist chanting will not get you arrested in Bulgaria. Whilst Nazi salutes and monkey chanting will not get you arrested in Bulgaria, so it seems nor will comparing Muslims to letterboxes or likening black people to have watermelon smiles, or referring to another Senator with native American ancestry as Pocahontas. There is a section in society that have, (worryingly) people to look up to or even aspire to be with extreme views.This is clearly evident in both the UK and the US.We have a lot of work to do ourselves before we can start throwing stones at others.This is not an Eastern European problem, racism is a global problem. In order to have a cultural change there needs to be leadership, The action taken by the Prime Minister of Bulgaria should be applauded.It is a small step admittedly but its a step nonetheless.
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Post by Lobster on Oct 15, 2019 15:30:48 GMT
Two very good posts that are hard do argue with. I am afraid that racism appears endemic in Eastern Europe and with quasi fascist regimes in Poland and Hungary and white supremacists in the ruling coalition in Estonia it is going politically backwards very fast. All these countries are in the EU and I am shocked and disgusted that a blind eye is taken by the progressive countries in the EU to this state of affairs. Football is merely symptomatic of society at large and last night showed that making nazi salutes and racist chanting will not get you arrested in Bulgaria. Whilst Nazi salutes and monkey chanting will not get you arrested in Bulgaria, so it seems nor will comparing Muslims to letterboxes or likening black people to have watermelon smiles, or referring to another Senator with native American ancestry as Pocahontas. There is a section in society that have, (worryingly) people to look up to or even aspire to be with extreme views.This is clearly evident in both the UK and the US.We have a lot of work to do ourselves before we can start throwing stones at others.This is not an Eastern European problem, racism is a global problem. In order to have a cultural change there needs to be leadership, The action taken by the Prime Minister of Bulgaria should be applauded.It is a small step admittedly but its a step nonetheless.Indeed. I can't say I know much about the politics of Bulgaria, but it's a more decisive and progressive response than you'd get from many current leaders of Western nations.
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Post by Churton Blue on Oct 15, 2019 16:11:30 GMT
Two very good posts that are hard do argue with. I am afraid that racism appears endemic in Eastern Europe and with quasi fascist regimes in Poland and Hungary and white supremacists in the ruling coalition in Estonia it is going politically backwards very fast. All these countries are in the EU and I am shocked and disgusted that a blind eye is taken by the progressive countries in the EU to this state of affairs. Football is merely symptomatic of society at large and last night showed that making nazi salutes and racist chanting will not get you arrested in Bulgaria. Whilst Nazi salutes and monkey chanting will not get you arrested in Bulgaria, so it seems nor will comparing Muslims to letterboxes or likening black people to have watermelon smiles, or referring to another Senator with native American ancestry as Pocahontas. There is a section in society that have, (worryingly) people to look up to or even aspire to be with extreme views.This is clearly evident in both the UK and the US.We have a lot of work to do ourselves before we can start throwing stones at others.This is not an Eastern European problem, racism is a global problem. In order to have a cultural change there needs to be leadership, The action taken by the Prime Minister of Bulgaria should be applauded.It is a small step admittedly but its a step nonetheless. The Bulgarian PM is in coalition with the racist far right and has found a scapegoat to absolve himself of any blame. Whilst we have are own problems with the the odious Johnson the likes of Fidesz in Hungary or EKRE in Estonia are in different league and we ignore that at our peril.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2019 16:19:11 GMT
Had a feeling that Bulgarian National Coach would come out and say he heard nothing
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Oct 15, 2019 16:21:00 GMT
Whilst Nazi salutes and monkey chanting will not get you arrested in Bulgaria, so it seems nor will comparing Muslims to letterboxes or likening black people to have watermelon smiles, or referring to another Senator with native American ancestry as Pocahontas. There is a section in society that have, (worryingly) people to look up to or even aspire to be with extreme views.This is clearly evident in both the UK and the US.We have a lot of work to do ourselves before we can start throwing stones at others.This is not an Eastern European problem, racism is a global problem. In order to have a cultural change there needs to be leadership, The action taken by the Prime Minister of Bulgaria should be applauded.It is a small step admittedly but its a step nonetheless. The Bulgarian PM is in coalition with the racist far right and has found a scapegoat to absolve himself of any blame. Whilst we have are own problems with the the odious Johnson the likes of Fidesz in Hungary or EKRE in Estonia are in different league and we ignore that at our peril. That is correct, the Bulgarian PM enforcing the resignation of the Head of the Football Union is to do with more than last night's events - statement mentions "consequence of recent tensions" and does not really talk about racism.
"After yesterday's shameful loss of the Bulgarian National Team and given the bad results of our football, I ordered to end any relationship with BFU, including financial, until the withdrawal of Borislav Mihaylov from the post," he added. Seems like its about the football more than the racism.
The words of the UEFA president about the "football family" uniting to clamp down on this sort of thing ring hollow to me - paltry fines are the norm.
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Post by Wortleyblue on Oct 17, 2019 10:15:03 GMT
Lets get back on topic I know it is an emotive topic I have deleted the post re Neanderthals and other related posts
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Post by bing on Oct 18, 2019 8:51:19 GMT
I suppose the only crumb of comfort is that events like this week actually show the really strong, black roll models we have in this country.
Ironic given the title of the thread, but I reckon there is no where where this is more prevalent than in football.
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Post by Lobster on Oct 18, 2019 9:24:39 GMT
I suppose the only crumb of comfort is that events like this week actually show the really strong, black roll models we have in this country. Ironic given the title of the thread, but I reckon there is no where where this is more prevalent than in football. Good point. As an example, it's hard to imagine any other way other than through football that an African Muslim could become probably the most celebrated person in Liverpool.
Similarly with us, we all chant the name of a black Dutchman.
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Post by sealandender1 on Oct 18, 2019 10:31:03 GMT
Nobody should accept racism of any sort and yet sizeism is seen to be accepted with hundreds of fans often singing “who ate all the pies . . . “ I belong to a size ‘problem’ and don’t feel that I should be discriminated against because of it, but I am similar to certain overweight footballers by being picked on because of it and it seems to be acceptable to hear “you fat bastard”, unfortunately, the powers that be turn a blind eye to these circumstances and remarks. Rant over.
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Post by rcb on Oct 18, 2019 12:15:04 GMT
Nobody should accept racism of any sort and yet sizeism is seen to be accepted with hundreds of fans often singing “who ate all the pies . . . “ I belong to a size ‘problem’ and don’t feel that I should be discriminated against because of it, but I am similar to certain overweight footballers by being picked on because of it and it seems to be acceptable to hear “you fat bastard”, unfortunately, the powers that be turn a blind eye to these circumstances and remarks. Rant over. Utter nonsense. You don’t change colour by eating too much. The answer to an obesity issue is in your own hands, pies or otherwise.
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Post by Lobster on Oct 18, 2019 12:25:48 GMT
Nobody should accept racism of any sort and yet sizeism is seen to be accepted with hundreds of fans often singing “who ate all the pies . . . “ I belong to a size ‘problem’ and don’t feel that I should be discriminated against because of it, but I am similar to certain overweight footballers by being picked on because of it and it seems to be acceptable to hear “you fat bastard”, unfortunately, the powers that be turn a blind eye to these circumstances and remarks. Rant over. Utter nonsense. You don’t change colour by eating too much. The answer to an obesity issue is in your own hands, pies or otherwise. It's not an issue that should be treated the same way as racism. He's right that ideally we shouldn't be abusing people over their size, but then you'll always get those who defend 'banter' in football.
Myself, I still think football's biggest problem is homophobia. Football's racism problem is only really a microcosm of society's, but it's attitude towards homosexuality is something that's a lot more specifically ingrained in the sport and has not kept pace with wider society.
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Post by archwhopper on Oct 18, 2019 13:45:24 GMT
Nobody should accept racism of any sort and yet sizeism is seen to be accepted with hundreds of fans often singing “who ate all the pies . . . “ I belong to a size ‘problem’ and don’t feel that I should be discriminated against because of it, but I am similar to certain overweight footballers by being picked on because of it and it seems to be acceptable to hear “you fat bastard”, unfortunately, the powers that be turn a blind eye to these circumstances and remarks. Rant over. Utter nonsense. You don’t change colour by eating too much. The answer to an obesity issue is in your own hands, pies or otherwise. disagree, there was a lad on the news a few years ago who only ever ate quavers and he started to go yellow,
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Post by bing on Oct 18, 2019 14:08:15 GMT
You black b*****d = wrong You French b*****d = wrong You Scouse b*****d = banter You fat b*****d = banter
I can see Sealandender's point. If I'm an overweight person, a mob of fans chanting that would be no less offensive, yet because it's 'banter', it's okay!
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Post by gezzer on Oct 19, 2019 8:50:04 GMT
True story. I went racing yesterday on a works jolley. Our waiter was a young (British) black lad and at one point the "fat, Scouse B*****d" who I was sat next to said "What u talking about Willis?" There was a sharp intake of breath by a couple of snowflakes in the group which prompted the waiter to say "don't know what you're talking about but judging by their reaction it was racist" I explained that it was a quote from the program Different Strokes. The FSB then went on to say nothing racist and nothing different to people shouting "gizza job" to him as he was growing up. At the end of the day the waiter came up to us and during his break he watched a few clips of Different Strokes and found them hilarious and definitely not racist.
Point is imo some in society today are jumping on the racist, homophobia, PC bandwagon without understanding what they are on about. Just mentioning a persons colour, sexual orientation etc leads to allegations of bigotry. New generations are more accepting of todays culture and therefore any Old Farts who are not already educated will eventually Die out and hopefully take their bigoted views to the grave with them.
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Post by sealandender1 on Oct 19, 2019 10:15:44 GMT
You black b*****d = wrong You French b*****d = wrong You Scouse b*****d = banter You fat b*****d = banter I can see Sealandender's point. If I'm an overweight person, a mob of fans chanting that would be no less offensive, yet because it's 'banter', it's okay! Thanks bing for your support . . . under which banner would “You fat black b*****d” fall? Wrong or banter!
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Post by Ian H Block on Oct 19, 2019 11:21:22 GMT
True story. I went racing yesterday on a works jolley. Our waiter was a young (British) black lad and at one point the "fat, Scouse B*****d" who I was sat next to said "What u talking about Willis?" There was a sharp intake of breath by a couple of snowflakes in the group which prompted the waiter to say "don't know what you're talking about but judging by their reaction it was racist" I explained that it was a quote from the program Different Strokes. The FSB then went on to say nothing racist and nothing different to people shouting "gizza job" to him as he was growing up. At the end of the day the waiter came up to us and during his break he watched a few clips of Different Strokes and found them hilarious and definitely not racist. Point is imo some in society today are jumping on the racist, homophobia, PC bandwagon without understanding what they are on about. Just mentioning a persons colour, sexual orientation etc leads to allegations of bigotry. New generations are more accepting of todays culture and therefore any Old Farts who are not already educated will eventually Die out and hopefully take their bigoted views to the grave with them. Always helpful when a white person explains what’s racist and what isn’t.
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Post by Neil Hunt Nonsense Potter on Oct 19, 2019 11:44:49 GMT
True story. I went racing yesterday on a works jolley. Our waiter was a young (British) black lad and at one point the "fat, Scouse B*****d" who I was sat next to said "What u talking about Willis?" There was a sharp intake of breath by a couple of snowflakes in the group which prompted the waiter to say "don't know what you're talking about but judging by their reaction it was racist" I explained that it was a quote from the program Different Strokes. The FSB then went on to say nothing racist and nothing different to people shouting "gizza job" to him as he was growing up. At the end of the day the waiter came up to us and during his break he watched a few clips of Different Strokes and found them hilarious and definitely not racist. Point is imo some in society today are jumping on the racist, homophobia, PC bandwagon without understanding what they are on about. Just mentioning a persons colour, sexual orientation etc leads to allegations of bigotry. New generations are more accepting of todays culture and therefore any Old Farts who are not already educated will eventually Die out and hopefully take their bigoted views to the grave with them. Always helpful when a white person explains what’s racist and what isn’t. And gets it wrong.
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Post by rcb on Oct 19, 2019 11:49:55 GMT
Racism has been defined as - “ the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.” Always pathetically naive to read of reference to colour be it black, white, or other, as if it only applies to one race. That is discrimination.
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Post by Lobster on Oct 19, 2019 12:04:02 GMT
True story. I went racing yesterday on a works jolley. Our waiter was a young (British) black lad and at one point the "fat, Scouse B*****d" who I was sat next to said "What u talking about Willis?" There was a sharp intake of breath by a couple of snowflakes in the group which prompted the waiter to say "don't know what you're talking about but judging by their reaction it was racist" I explained that it was a quote from the program Different Strokes. The FSB then went on to say nothing racist and nothing different to people shouting "gizza job" to him as he was growing up. At the end of the day the waiter came up to us and during his break he watched a few clips of Different Strokes and found them hilarious and definitely not racist. Point is imo some in society today are jumping on the racist, homophobia, PC bandwagon without understanding what they are on about. Just mentioning a persons colour, sexual orientation etc leads to allegations of bigotry. New generations are more accepting of todays culture and therefore any Old Farts who are not already educated will eventually Die out and hopefully take their bigoted views to the grave with them. I would say your mate is fortunate that the waiter took it in good humour. I also wouldn't rule out that he felt uncomfortable but decided to laugh it off rather than create a scene. You're right in a way, there's a difference between holding racially prejudiced views and trying to have a bit of a joke with people, but while genuine racism exists, it has to be done with caution. If nothing else, I think making jokes/comments to strangers about their appearance and ethnicity is pretty rude.
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Post by gezzer on Oct 19, 2019 16:13:35 GMT
Haringey Borough players walk off in their FA Cup game against Yeovil Town after their Goalkeeper is racially abused by visiting fans.
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Post by rcb on Oct 19, 2019 17:41:19 GMT
Haringey Borough players walk off in their FA Cup game against Yeovil Town after their Goalkeeper is racially abused by visiting fans. Watch how quickly the authorities jump on Haringey Borough! They haven’t got the bottle to address the real problem. Neither did today’s referee by the sound of things.
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