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Post by Lobster on Nov 30, 2017 17:52:09 GMT
With Bignot chasing a striker, I've seen a lot of talk about how you should "build a team from the back" and get a solid defence before you do anything else, but I wonder if this is a bit of an old-fashioned mantra stemming from the era of two points for a win.
While you can argue that if you don't concede, you won't lose, it's also true that if you don't score, you can't win. And with three points for a win, mathematics dictates that the value of turning draws into wins is greater than turning defeats into draws.
Plus there's the fact that a high scoring team is more watchable than a dour defensive one, thus bringing more people through the gates and helping the club financially.
So, in my opinion, Bignot is right to prioritise our lack of fire power up front ahead of our leaky defence. You can win a game four-three, but you can't win a game nil-minus one. And we do need wins!
But what do you think? If your whole team is crap (as ours basically is), what area should you address first?
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Post by Mean Machine on Nov 30, 2017 18:22:57 GMT
I would much rather watch a 3-2 or 4-3 game of football than a 1-0
However looking back at the shocking goals we have conceded this season particularly Barrow, Woking, Daggers at home and Orient away I would like to see the defence and goalkeeper given priority
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Post by Al on Nov 30, 2017 18:33:38 GMT
With Bignot chasing a striker, I've seen a lot of talk about how you should "build a team from the back" and get a solid defence before you do anything else, but I wonder if this is a bit of an old-fashioned mantra stemming from the era of two points for a win. While you can argue that if you don't concede, you won't lose, it's also true that if you don't score, you can't win. And with three points for a win, mathematics dictates that the value of turning draws into wins is greater than turning defeats into draws. Plus there's the fact that a high scoring team is more watchable than a dour defensive one, thus bringing more people through the gates and helping the club financially. So, in my opinion, Bignot is right to prioritise our lack of fire power up front ahead of our leaky defence. You can win a game four-three, but you can't win a game nil-minus one. And we do need wins! But what do you think? If your whole team is crap (as ours basically is), what area should you address first? Look, it's rubbish. Any successful side is built on a solid and reliable defence. We did it under Wright, and 3 times in a row under Neil Young. Ferguson did it at United as well for many, many years. You want evidence of this? Look no further than our neighbours down the road. Until last weekend we'd scored more goals than them and they were top of the league! The reason we are where we are is down to a disgraceful defence that would struggle to contain an Evo Stik side. Simple as |
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Post by Lobster on Nov 30, 2017 18:51:50 GMT
With Bignot chasing a striker, I've seen a lot of talk about how you should "build a team from the back" and get a solid defence before you do anything else, but I wonder if this is a bit of an old-fashioned mantra stemming from the era of two points for a win. While you can argue that if you don't concede, you won't lose, it's also true that if you don't score, you can't win. And with three points for a win, mathematics dictates that the value of turning draws into wins is greater than turning defeats into draws. Plus there's the fact that a high scoring team is more watchable than a dour defensive one, thus bringing more people through the gates and helping the club financially. So, in my opinion, Bignot is right to prioritise our lack of fire power up front ahead of our leaky defence. You can win a game four-three, but you can't win a game nil-minus one. And we do need wins! But what do you think? If your whole team is crap (as ours basically is), what area should you address first? Look, it's rubbish. Any successful side is built on a solid and reliable defence. We did it under Wright, and 3 times in a row under Neil Young. Ferguson did it at United as well for many, many years. You want evidence of this? Look no further than our neighbours down the road. Until last weekend we'd scored more goals than them and they were top of the league! The reason we are where we are is down to a disgraceful defence that would struggle to contain an Evo Stik side. Simple as You're comparing us to title-winning teams. We're not trying to win the league, we're trying to stay in it. Yes, of course, if you want to win the league, you need a defence, but the point I'm making is that we're neither scoring goals nor keeping clean sheets, so which is the bigger problem? Not as simple as you're making it out to be. |
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Post by Firestick Frank on Nov 30, 2017 18:55:46 GMT
For me, it's more the fact that we need at least two more defenders (RB and CB) and a winger, not striker number seven. The issue of assessing the current squad makeup and highlighting where we need extra bodies.
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Post by Al on Nov 30, 2017 18:58:46 GMT
Look, it's rubbish. Any successful side is built on a solid and reliable defence. We did it under Wright, and 3 times in a row under Neil Young. Ferguson did it at United as well for many, many years. You want evidence of this? Look no further than our neighbours down the road. Until last weekend we'd scored more goals than them and they were top of the league! The reason we are where we are is down to a disgraceful defence that would struggle to contain an Evo Stik side. Simple as You're comparing us to title-winning teams. We're not trying to win the league, we're trying to stay in it. Yes, of course, if you want to win the league, you need a defence, but the point I'm making is that we're neither scoring goals nor keeping clean sheets, so which is the bigger problem? Not as simple as you're making it out to be. Of course its simple You don't concede you don't lose. You take the pressure and constant expectation off your strikers and they'll probably score more because they're playing under less pressure. If we want to stay in this division then the answer is, sort the defence out. Stop conceding stupid goals. Do that and we stay up. |
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Post by Lobster on Nov 30, 2017 19:01:58 GMT
You're comparing us to title-winning teams. We're not trying to win the league, we're trying to stay in it. Yes, of course, if you want to win the league, you need a defence, but the point I'm making is that we're neither scoring goals nor keeping clean sheets, so which is the bigger problem? Not as simple as you're making it out to be. Of course its simple You don't concede you don't lose. You take the pressure and constant expectation off your strikers and they'll probably score more because they're playing under less pressure. If we want to stay in this division then the answer is, sort the defence out. Stop conceding stupid goals. Do that and we stay up. If we draw every game 0-0 I'm pretty sure we'll go down. |
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Post by Al on Nov 30, 2017 19:03:41 GMT
Of course its simple You don't concede you don't lose. You take the pressure and constant expectation off your strikers and they'll probably score more because they're playing under less pressure. If we want to stay in this division then the answer is, sort the defence out. Stop conceding stupid goals. Do that and we stay up. If we draw every game 0-0 I'm pretty sure we'll go down. So you're suggesting that a front line of Hannah, Akintunde, Bell, Archer, and whoever else we have wouldn't score a single goal if we started keeping clean sheets? I'm sure you're just being deliberately daft now |
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Post by Lobster on Nov 30, 2017 19:07:03 GMT
If we draw every game 0-0 I'm pretty sure we'll go down. So you're suggesting that a front line of Hannah, Akintunde, Bell, Archer, and whoever else we have wouldn't score a single goal if we started keeping clean sheets? I'm sure you're just being deliberately daft now And you're suggesting signing a defender will mean we never concede again? These are unrealistic examples of course, but the point is that too many draws will send us down. We need to win games and you do that by scoring goals. |
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Post by Al on Nov 30, 2017 19:11:00 GMT
So you're suggesting that a front line of Hannah, Akintunde, Bell, Archer, and whoever else we have wouldn't score a single goal if we started keeping clean sheets? I'm sure you're just being deliberately daft now And you're suggesting signing a defender will mean we never concede again? These are unrealistic examples of course, but the point is that too many draws will send us down. We need to win games and you do that by scoring goals. You're beyond help. You win games by scoring goals and NOT CONCEDING GOALS. We are scoring goals. We are conceding more goals than we score. We have one of the worst defensive records in the division. We will not stay in the division if we continue to concede goals at the rate we are currently. You are the one saying "if we draw every game 0-0" by the way. |
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Post by Lobster on Nov 30, 2017 19:20:02 GMT
We're the fourth lowest scorers in the league, and the third highest conceded. The two are pretty much an equal problem.
You win games by scoring more that you concede. How you go about that is up to you.
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Post by zipper on Nov 30, 2017 19:33:30 GMT
You build a team from the back then add your fire power,liverpool are great going forward but rubbish at the back,if they had a decent defence they would be giving pep a run for his money.
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Post by bing on Nov 30, 2017 19:33:40 GMT
Interesting question...
I'm inclined to agree with Lobster on this one.
A decent forward line occupies their defence and keeps full backs pegged back, so therefore helps the defence too.
We have to have a threat, otherwise opposing teams would pile forward and put huge pressure on our defence no matter how good they were.
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Post by chesterken on Nov 30, 2017 19:34:25 GMT
And you're suggesting signing a defender will mean we never concede again? These are unrealistic examples of course, but the point is that too many draws will send us down. We need to win games and you do that by scoring goals. You're beyond help. You win games by scoring goals and NOT CONCEDING GOALS. We are scoring goals. We are conceding more goals than we score. We have one of the worst defensive records in the division. We will not stay in the division if we continue to concede goals at the rate we are currently. You are the one saying "if we draw every game 0-0" by the way. You two are carrying on like an old married couple😂 |
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Post by Hannibal on Nov 30, 2017 19:36:40 GMT
We stayed up last year because we had Ryan Astles and Sam Hughes for long enough in central defence to win enough points to stay up. I convinced with last years defence we wouldn't be in this position.
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Post by Lobster on Nov 30, 2017 20:02:20 GMT
You're beyond help. You win games by scoring goals and NOT CONCEDING GOALS. We are scoring goals. We are conceding more goals than we score. We have one of the worst defensive records in the division. We will not stay in the division if we continue to concede goals at the rate we are currently. You are the one saying "if we draw every game 0-0" by the way. You two are carrying on like an old married couple😂 He started it! |
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Post by Imperial on Nov 30, 2017 20:05:47 GMT
We play two up top usually & have three at least reasonable forwards in Aki, Hannah & Archer (though its early days with him). We’ve also got White, Bell & Slew as backup as well.
We play two CB’s and we’ve got one decent one.
It’s as simple as the maths make it.
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Post by chesterken on Nov 30, 2017 20:10:08 GMT
We stayed up last year because we had Ryan Astles and Sam Hughes for long enough in central defence to win enough points to stay up. I convinced with last years defence we wouldn't be in this position. Not a bad call Hannibal |
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Post by Deva Chanter on Nov 30, 2017 20:13:36 GMT
I'm with Al on this one - you should absolutely build from the back. It really is an exceptionally high risk strategy to move forward with an attitude of simply trying to outscore the opposition in every match.
How many teams can you think of who, in a position like ours, have got out of trouble by signing loads of forwards and trying to outscore every team they play? I am struggling to think of any examples.
I would also ask, why is it that the likes of Sam Allardyce, Roy Hodgson and Tony Pulis get managerial jobs at struggling teams midway through the Premier League campaign? And how do those managers go about saving teams from relegation? They don't do it by employing the sort of attitude it appears our manager is currently favouring as a rescue method.
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Post by Firestick Frank on Nov 30, 2017 21:35:56 GMT
The first thing MW did when he came in the first time around, struggling at the wrong end of the Conference in only our second season at this level, was make us tough to beat. As the poster above points out, most managers who take over struggling clubs do the same thing.
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Post by Harry Lime on Nov 30, 2017 21:45:00 GMT
Any decent manager should be able to organise a team at this level. For me, it's a serious failing if you can't.
I'd agree that good attacking play is more exciting to watch them good defensive play.
However, bad defensive play is far more frustrating than bad attacking play and far more likely to drive fans away.
Football is a balance between the two. If you don't score enough, but concede loads. You get relegated.
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Post by dmcnally on Nov 30, 2017 22:08:39 GMT
Wrexham have built from the back this season and they aren’t doing too bad.
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Post by jb on Nov 30, 2017 23:23:35 GMT
That defence of Vassel, Hughes, Astles and Hunt was brilliant in the first half of last season. No doubt organised by Sharps. That co-incided with that great run of form. The defence was the platform for the early success.
Why did Mad Macca sign Halls and not Vassel?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2017 23:26:55 GMT
That defence of Vassel, Hughes, Astles and Hunt was brilliant in the first half of last season. No doubt organised by Sharps. That co-incided with that great run of form. The defence was the platform for the early success. Why did Mad Macca sign Halls and not Vassel? We had a top keeper in Liam Roberts too. Easily the most talented we've had I'm years. |
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Post by jb on Nov 30, 2017 23:29:40 GMT
That defence of Vassel, Hughes, Astles and Hunt was brilliant in the first half of last season. No doubt organised by Sharps. That co-incided with that great run of form. The defence was the platform for the early success. Why did Mad Macca sign Halls and not Vassel? We had a top keeper in Liam Roberts too. Easily the most talented we've had I'm years. Very true. Made some cracking saves in the game against Torquay. I see Mitchell has gone back. He was a disappointment. |
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Post by Derry Blue on Dec 1, 2017 8:52:55 GMT
We had a top keeper in Liam Roberts too. Easily the most talented we've had I'm years. Very true. Made some cracking saves in the game against Torquay. I see Mitchell has gone back. He was a disappointment. A disappointment - like many of the ones who're getting a game. |
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Post by Hannibal on Dec 1, 2017 9:00:23 GMT
That defence of Vassel, Hughes, Astles and Hunt was brilliant in the first half of last season. No doubt organised by Sharps. That co-incided with that great run of form. The defence was the platform for the early success. Why did Mad Macca sign Halls and not Vassel? Probably Askey did a job on the poor sod. |
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Post by marner93 on Dec 1, 2017 14:49:42 GMT
Attack, we're never going to keep a clean sheet, we need to make sure we can score more than we're conceding
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Post by massivefloodlights on Dec 1, 2017 14:55:08 GMT
Attack, we're never going to keep a clean sheet, we need to make sure we can score more than we're conceding Ever thought of watching basketball mate? It might be what your looking for. |
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Post by henry on Dec 1, 2017 16:42:56 GMT
Whatever your opinion of Mark Wright (who after all was the captain of England in the World cup). He brought in three giant central defenders to save us from relegation THEN signed the best three strikers in the division
Not to mention some decent midfield players !!!
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