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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 7:13:28 GMT
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Post by South Wirral Blue on Dec 13, 2019 7:13:28 GMT
Swinson loses her seat to the SNP. It's been a miserable night for the LD's too.
Agree with the above sentiments that a serious Labour rethink is needed. The last time a Labour leader who wasn't Tony Blair won an election was back in 1974. It's not just the fact Labour lost, they've been slaughtered.
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 7:35:35 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Dec 13, 2019 7:35:35 GMT
Swinson loses her seat to the SNP. It's been a miserable night for the LD's too. Agree with the above sentiments that a serious Labour rethink is needed. The last time a Labour leader who wasn't Tony Blair won an election was back in 1974. It's not just the fact Labour lost, they've been slaughtered. Your first paragraph contradicts your second. Swinson’s defeat means there is no room for Blairite “centrism”. It’s either fascist far right or left now. Time to pick a side. |
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 7:36:35 GMT
Post by eyeswideopen on Dec 13, 2019 7:36:35 GMT
“Corbynism” isn’t a thing. It’s called socialism. And the movement has only just begun, the policies are hugely popular with the public. But the move the Labour leadership made to appease the Blairites in the party over Brexit has cost them. Jeremy Corbyn’s position on Brexit has been vindicated, he’s just “too” democratic and allowed too much compromise. In 2017, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was to respect the referendum, Labour wiped out a Tory majority. In 2019, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was changed to have a second referendum, there’s now a Thatcherite majority. Let’s not kid ourselves with what the real issue is here. We go again but I’m genuinely concerned about the direction this country is going to take over the next five years of NHS sell-off, the stripping of our rights and the Trojan horse of a facist authoritarian anti-environment government. I expect a further rise in hate crimes against ethnic minorities and the disabled, an even sharper rise in homelessness and families struggling to get by, schools facing closure and bus services further reduced, fracking on the rise and an unsafe environment. As a disabled public service worker with three children in/to be in our local village state school I fear for my family’s future. Thank god the people of Chester can see this. The people of Wrexham, well we always knew they were a backwards weird lot. Boris Johnson will have nobody else to blame when Brexit all goes wrong. It’s his thing now, it’s on his watch. The Tories are set up for a massive fall in six months when the people wake up and realise they are doing nothing about any of the problems that really exist. As much as i have a deep loathing and rivalry with their football team, to call a whole town a backwards weird lot based on their political stance is just crass.I have voted Labour all my life and did again yesterday and thankfully EP & Ns tremendous MP Justin Madders held on. Last night the country did not elect Boris Johnson, they clearly rejected Jeremy Corbyn and socialism. His mantra on Brexit was to let the people decide, well last night they did just that. As much as Labour and the left wanted to make this election about policies, its clear the country didnt. Labour now have to find a leader that not only appeals to Labour supporters, but to the country as a whole in order to take on the tories in 4 years time. The country has shifted politically and unless Labour does too then they will never be re-elected. |
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 7:50:27 GMT
Post by Lobster on Dec 13, 2019 7:50:27 GMT
I did have to laugh a bit at Kuenssberg last night, who was the first person on the BBC to use the phrase 'Brexit election' after the exit poll, but when John McDonnell said the same thing, she rubbished it and said it was all about him and Corbyn. She isn't very good at hiding her dislike for those two!
It is time for Labour to reassess things, but it's also important not to make hot-headed decisions. The next election will be some time away and will be in a very different climate. Brexit (you assume) will be "done" and the fallout from that may change the way the country thinks.
You do wonder if in hindsight, it might have been better if one of May's lousy Brexit deals had got through. They were crap, but that would have reflected poorly on her and her party when they inevitably went badly. Instead of "revoke Article 50", "have a second referendum" and so on, the focus would have been simply "rejoin the EU". Instead, the Tories have capitalised on fear and uncertainty.
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Post by Al on Dec 13, 2019 7:56:18 GMT
Oh well, suppose at least I've not been nationalised this morning. Every cloud and all that..
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 7:56:43 GMT
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Post by South Wirral Blue on Dec 13, 2019 7:56:43 GMT
the Tories have capitalised on fear They've capitalised on the fear of a Corbyn-led government. |
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 8:02:41 GMT
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Post by paulie on Dec 13, 2019 8:02:41 GMT
Corbyn was after a “people’s vote” on brexit, he got one yesterday and the people have wiped the floor with him.
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 8:04:36 GMT
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Post by jb on Dec 13, 2019 8:04:36 GMT
The scrutiny is all on Corbyn, but really the story of this election is Boris Johnson. I hate to praise him, but the way he has masterminded his way to the top is as incredible as it is disturbing. The man has more or less single-handedly turned the Conservative into a party working classic, former mining towns will vote for. You can sum his timeline up as follows: - Generally bumble about on the periphery of the party for years, appearing in the public eye regularly. Gain a reputation as an oafish but witty, eccentric toff. Become Mayor of London on the back of this. - Find an issue that divides the party and will gain support within working class communities - something that plays on their insecurities and gives the impression that it's foreigners and Brussels bureaucracy to blame for the way their towns are. Thus, Brexit was born. - Win the Brexit vote, but don't take the reins yet, while it's still raw and messy. Let some other sap deal with it. - Heckle from the sidelines as Brexit turns into a shitshow. Three years on, we're still no further down the line and everyone fed up. Now's his time. - Lie, smear and hide where necessary. Come up with a campaign that appeals to everyone's sense of frustration over Brexit, whether they voted leave or remain.'Get Brexit Done' will do - it appeals to people who both want it, and those who dread it but just want it over. It's deceitful, nasty and dishonest, but this is an intelligent, calculating man who is always thinking several moves ahead. Corbyn's position is now untenable, but to put this entire result down to him is a cop out in my opinion. The fact is that Britain, like America, is now firmly in the grip of the populist right. The question now has to be - how best do we tackle this? I've woken up this morning relieved to some extent that it hasn't been quite as bad as the exit poll suggested, and at least the Wirral and Chester have stayed red. So the Labour anti-semitism scandal, their disdain for successful business owners, the proposals to try and cripple SME’s in their “manifesto”, pie in the sky calculations, their stance on Brexit, soft stance on crime, demilitarisation and their stance on terrorists had nothing to do with the hiding they took last night? |
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 8:14:54 GMT
Post by Lobster on Dec 13, 2019 8:14:54 GMT
The scrutiny is all on Corbyn, but really the story of this election is Boris Johnson. I hate to praise him, but the way he has masterminded his way to the top is as incredible as it is disturbing. The man has more or less single-handedly turned the Conservative into a party working classic, former mining towns will vote for. You can sum his timeline up as follows: - Generally bumble about on the periphery of the party for years, appearing in the public eye regularly. Gain a reputation as an oafish but witty, eccentric toff. Become Mayor of London on the back of this. - Find an issue that divides the party and will gain support within working class communities - something that plays on their insecurities and gives the impression that it's foreigners and Brussels bureaucracy to blame for the way their towns are. Thus, Brexit was born. - Win the Brexit vote, but don't take the reins yet, while it's still raw and messy. Let some other sap deal with it. - Heckle from the sidelines as Brexit turns into a shitshow. Three years on, we're still no further down the line and everyone fed up. Now's his time. - Lie, smear and hide where necessary. Come up with a campaign that appeals to everyone's sense of frustration over Brexit, whether they voted leave or remain.'Get Brexit Done' will do - it appeals to people who both want it, and those who dread it but just want it over. It's deceitful, nasty and dishonest, but this is an intelligent, calculating man who is always thinking several moves ahead. Corbyn's position is now untenable, but to put this entire result down to him is a cop out in my opinion. The fact is that Britain, like America, is now firmly in the grip of the populist right. The question now has to be - how best do we tackle this? I've woken up this morning relieved to some extent that it hasn't been quite as bad as the exit poll suggested, and at least the Wirral and Chester have stayed red. So the Labour anti-semitism scandal, their disdain for successful business owners, the proposals to try and cripple SME’s in their “manifesto”, pie in the sky calculations, their stance on Brexit, soft stance on crime, demilitarisation and their stance on terrorists had nothing to do with the hiding they took last night? I didn't say it had nothing to do with it, just that it's not the only factor. I think the Tories would have beaten any Labour government. |
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 8:20:01 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Dec 13, 2019 8:20:01 GMT
Corbyn was after a “people’s vote” on brexit, he got one yesterday and the people have wiped the floor with him. As I said it wasn’t his position but he pandered to the views of the likes of Starmer and other Blairites in the party. I’ll say it again... In 2017, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was to respect the referendum, Labour wiped out a Tory majority. In 2019, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was changed to have a second referendum, there’s now a Thatcherite majority. The best thing for Labour to do will be to elect a Rayner, a Pidcock, or a Lewis to continue the fight for the many, not the few. |
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Post by billyw on Dec 13, 2019 8:27:02 GMT
Corbyn was after a “people’s vote” on brexit, he got one yesterday and the people have wiped the floor with him. As I said it wasn’t his position but he pandered to the views of the likes of Starmer and other Blairites in the party. I’ll say it again... In 2017, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was to respect the referendum, Labour wiped out a Tory majority. In 2019, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was changed to have a second referendum, there’s now a Thatcherite majority. The best thing for Labour to do will be to elect a Rayner, a Pidcock, or a Lewis to continue the fight for the many, not the few. It isn’t all about Brexit, the public have overwhelmingly made it clear they don’t want hard left Corbynism and incidentally Pidcock has lost her seat |
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 8:32:46 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Dec 13, 2019 8:32:46 GMT
As I said it wasn’t his position but he pandered to the views of the likes of Starmer and other Blairites in the party. I’ll say it again... In 2017, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was to respect the referendum, Labour wiped out a Tory majority. In 2019, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was changed to have a second referendum, there’s now a Thatcherite majority. The best thing for Labour to do will be to elect a Rayner, a Pidcock, or a Lewis to continue the fight for the many, not the few. It isn’t all about Brexit, the public have overwhelmingly made it clear they don’t want hard left Corbynism and incidentally Pidcock has lost her seat So it’s just a coincidence that Labour lost swathes of seats to the Tory bastards in Leave-voting areas? In 2017, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was to respect the referendum, Labour wiped out a Tory majority. In 2019, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was changed to have a second referendum, there’s now a Thatcherite majority. Go figure. The only thing that has changed from 2017 to now is Labour’s Brexit policy. |
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Post by South Wirral Blue on Dec 13, 2019 9:17:49 GMT
It isn’t all about Brexit, the public have overwhelmingly made it clear they don’t want hard left Corbynism and incidentally Pidcock has lost her seat So it’s just a coincidence that Labour lost swathes of seats to the Tory bastards in Leave-voting areas? In 2017, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was to respect the referendum, Labour wiped out a Tory majority. In 2019, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was changed to have a second referendum, there’s now a Thatcherite majority. Go figure. The only thing that has changed from 2017 to now is Labour’s Brexit policy. If you carry on pretending that it's just about Brexit it will stifle your recovery. Nobody is denying how big a part it has played but there's clearly more going on here and you don't need to look particularly hard to see it. |
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Post by jb on Dec 13, 2019 9:18:19 GMT
Mancot, get yourself down the Shire Hall this morning and demand a second election. See how far it gets you.
If that fails you could always move to the far-left utopia of North Korea. You'll love it there and feel right at home.
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Post by paulie on Dec 13, 2019 9:19:07 GMT
The beast of bolsover gone. The Only politician I’ve ever liked
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 9:23:54 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Dec 13, 2019 9:23:54 GMT
Well?? Is it just a coincidence that Labour lost swathes of seats to the Tory bastards in Leave-voting areas?
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 9:23:56 GMT
Post by luke90 on Dec 13, 2019 9:23:56 GMT
It isn’t all about Brexit, the public have overwhelmingly made it clear they don’t want hard left Corbynism and incidentally Pidcock has lost her seat So it’s just a coincidence that Labour lost swathes of seats to the Tory bastards in Leave-voting areas? In 2017, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was to respect the referendum, Labour wiped out a Tory majority. In 2019, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was changed to have a second referendum, there’s now a Thatcherite majority. Go figure. The only thing that has changed from 2017 to now is Labour’s Brexit policy. Broken record. Yes, Brexit played a MASSIVE part in it, of course it did. However, Labour clearly didn't listen to what there own supporters want. They have abandoned half their support and look where it has got them? How is that for the many? As much as i don't like Corbyn, he is principled and knows what is wants. However, he has flipped the position as you have said above, like it or not, he is the leader of the party, and he has either changed, or was forced to. That is not a leader however you look at it. |
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 9:25:22 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Dec 13, 2019 9:25:22 GMT
So it’s just a coincidence that Labour lost swathes of seats to the Tory bastards in Leave-voting areas? In 2017, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was to respect the referendum, Labour wiped out a Tory majority. In 2019, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was changed to have a second referendum, there’s now a Thatcherite majority. Go figure. The only thing that has changed from 2017 to now is Labour’s Brexit policy. Broken record. Yes, Brexit played a MASSIVE part in it, of course it did. However, Labour clearly didn't listen to what there own supporters want. They have abandoned half their support and look where it has got them? How is that for the many? As much as i don't like Corbyn, he is principled and knows what is wants. However, he has flipped the position as you have said above, like it or not, he is the leader of the party, and he has either changed, or was forced to. That is not a leader however you look at it. You’re pretty much confirming my point - Labour switched their Brexit stance from “respect result” to “second referendum” thus abandoning half of their support, as you rightly point out. This is the point I am making. It’s the only difference from their policies of two years ago which wiped out May’s majority. |
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Post by billyw on Dec 13, 2019 9:27:39 GMT
It isn’t all about Brexit, the public have overwhelmingly made it clear they don’t want hard left Corbynism and incidentally Pidcock has lost her seat So it’s just a coincidence that Labour lost swathes of seats to the Tory bastards in Leave-voting areas? In 2017, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was to respect the referendum, Labour wiped out a Tory majority. In 2019, Corbyn was leader, the manifesto was radical, the position on Brexit was changed to have a second referendum, there’s now a Thatcherite majority. Go figure. The only thing that has changed from 2017 to now is Labour’s Brexit policy. You have your views but it doesn’t make them right just because you repeat them. While there is a mindset that Corbynism is the way forward, Labour will never get back into power. People don’t want to go back to the Labour disasters of the 70s which a hard left Government created, and it took a moderniser like Blair to wrest power from the Tories. The fact that you call Tories bastards sums you up and is typical of the attitudes of Momentum and left wingers who cannot stand anyone having a different view. Anyone not towing the Corbynista party line has been subjected to abuse, ridicule and intimidation being almost afraid to admit to being a Tory, but they certainly came forward in droves yesterday to be counted, so revenge is sweet. Just to clarify, the only Blue I support is Chester FC and did NOT vote for anyone yesterday. |
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Post by chislenko2 on Dec 13, 2019 9:29:40 GMT
COYB
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 9:29:46 GMT
Post by Hannibal on Dec 13, 2019 9:29:46 GMT
The beast of bolsover gone. The Only politician I’ve ever liked Indeed. You know what you got with him. Time he retired anyway. He must be getting on for 80. |
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 9:29:52 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Dec 13, 2019 9:29:52 GMT
I was merely repeating the question I posed to you, and others. Is it just a coincidence then?
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 9:34:24 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Dec 13, 2019 9:34:24 GMT
Interestingly more people voted for left-wing parties than right-wing parties yesterday (left-wing won the popular vote by over 1.5million votes) but in the current FPTP electoral system it doesn’t show.
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Post by South Wirral Blue on Dec 13, 2019 9:38:13 GMT
I was merely repeating the question I posed to you, and others. Is it just a coincidence then? No, Brexit was one of the reasons voters rejected Corbyn. A big reason, but not the only one. I'm not going to repeat those other reasons, they've been talked about enough times for you to have noticed. If you try to ignore why you lost so heavily you risk being locked out of office until the 2030s. |
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 9:39:43 GMT
Post by billyw on Dec 13, 2019 9:39:43 GMT
I was merely repeating the question I posed to you, and others. Is it just a coincidence then? it is more likely that in the intervening years, the general public has sussed Corbyn and his ilk out for the Marxist, anti-Semitic people they are. Had you not thought of that? |
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 9:40:42 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Dec 13, 2019 9:40:42 GMT
I was merely repeating the question I posed to you, and others. Is it just a coincidence then? No, Brexit was one of the reasons voters rejected Corbyn. A big reason, but not the only one. I'm not going to repeat those other reasons, they've been talked about enough times for you to have noticed. If you try to ignore why you lost so heavily you risk being locked out of office until the 2030s. Unlike you I don’t profess to know why people voted the way they did, I presume you’ve spoken to many voters after the vote? All I can say is a lot of Leave-voting seats went from Labour to Tory, and that’s a fact you can’t deny. Anything else is speculation unless, as I said, you have spoken to many voters and asked them why they voted the way they did. |
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 9:47:54 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Dec 13, 2019 9:47:54 GMT
I was merely repeating the question I posed to you, and others. Is it just a coincidence then? it is more likely that in the intervening years, the general public has sussed Corbyn and his ilk out for the Marxist, anti-Semitic people they are. Had you not thought of that? I don’t know, I mean the left won the popular vote by over 1.5million. The Tories have a massive Commons majority on just 43.6% of the vote. |
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 9:59:08 GMT
Post by Lobster on Dec 13, 2019 9:59:08 GMT
Spare a thought for Sophie Raworth, who has been stood in front of that daft hexagon-based political map of Britain since 10pm last night, and can't go home until the RNAS get all the ballot boxes from around the Isles of Scilly to confirm a Conservative shoe-in that makes no difference anyway.
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Post by jb on Dec 13, 2019 10:01:15 GMT
it is more likely that in the intervening years, the general public has sussed Corbyn and his ilk out for the Marxist, anti-Semitic people they are. Had you not thought of that? I don’t know, I mean the left won the popular vote by over 1.5million. The Tories have a massive Commons majority on just 43.6% of the vote. Grounds for a second election surely. Come on Mancot get down to Mold this morning and protest. It is your duty. |
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BREXIT
Dec 13, 2019 10:06:43 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Dec 13, 2019 10:06:43 GMT
I don’t know, I mean the left won the popular vote by over 1.5million. The Tories have a massive Commons majority on just 43.6% of the vote. Grounds for a second election surely. Come on Mancot get down to Mold this morning and protest. It is your duty. Just saying a substantial % of the population found the non-Brexit policies of this Labour manifesto popular, that’s all. |
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