|
Post by stangandy on Jul 3, 2019 10:01:51 GMT
It categorically is not just a sports hub just for Blacon. That's like saying Chester FC is a football club for Bumpers Lane. It happens to be located in Blacon (just) but it is on the City side and has good access. Grass roots clubs from all over the area will play there as will our own teams (youth and women - where we now pay out c£50k a year on pitches). If we fail to do any wrap around or creative marketing to thousands of football fans who will visit the site then of course it will have little direct impact on support or gates, but we believe we can and will exploit the asset and use it to build pride, awareness and commitment to our local team.
Everyone must make their own decisions about whether to actively support the KGV project or not. No criticism of those who choose not to, but I can promise those who do that it will be an exciting, important and very useful facility for the football club as well as the community.
We have faltered a bit along the way since we reformed, but we must build a different model to achieve our vision for 'sustainable football at the highest level' for the club. This is one aspect of it - of course not the whole story, but an important building block. Attracting the best players to join Chester is primarily about being able to pay them enough - no-one argues with that. But at the margin (and that is where we can make a difference) being able to point to top class facilities and yes in some cases the ability to earn extra cash working with the community trust will clinch a deal that otherwise might be lost.
|
|
|
Post by Churton Blue on Jul 3, 2019 10:02:24 GMT
You misunderstand my argument, I’m NOT advocating against KGV. I completely agree that it’s beneficial, it’s just that I don’t think it’s even feasible to raise the money from the fan base & even if it was, I think there are better ways the money could be spent that would benefit the club more than Blacon. If we had a billionaire owner then of course everyone would be 100% behind it but we haven’t & our resources are extremely finite & I don’t see this as benefiting the club long term in terms of attendances income significantly enough to be worth the huge outlay. Agreed. Until we get out of this league there is not a realistic future. Longer term planning has its place, but not to the detriment of the shorter term. Nobody cares about how well groomed the regimental goat is when they’re up to their neck in mud, with bullets flying overhead. Why Churton Blue feels a comparison with teams with sugar daddies is relevant is beyond me.Because even with all their money these three owners appreciate that they own clubs with small fan bases which need to be increased if these clubs are to prosper after the current owners have moved on.
|
|
|
Post by rcb on Jul 3, 2019 10:06:35 GMT
Agreed. Until we get out of this league there is not a realistic future. Longer term planning has its place, but not to the detriment of the shorter term. Nobody cares about how well groomed the regimental goat is when they’re up to their neck in mud, with bullets flying overhead. Why Churton Blue feels a comparison with teams with sugar daddies is relevant is beyond me.Because even with all their money three owners appreciate that they own clubs with small fan bases which need to be increased if these clubs are to prosper after the current owners have moved on. Multi- millionaire owners, not fan owned, is the point I am making.
|
|
|
Post by superman on Jul 3, 2019 10:44:39 GMT
I guess the conundrum is whether it is better to be over ambitious and risk failure or realistic and attain achievable goals. This applies to both the hub development and the football team. Being fan owned rather than having multi million pound owners, whatever their motives, certainly is a relevant factor. We would all like the club to have access to one of the best training facilities and to be at the top of the National league and challenge for EFL but we need to be realistic in our ambitions and expectations.
|
|
|
Post by henry on Jul 3, 2019 11:09:15 GMT
I am still a bit confused about the use of this facility. Will the Club always have first call on its use? For instance if the the managers decide to have an additional training session when the community would normally use it? I am not clear on how much control the Club will have and if the supporters raise a considerable portion of the cost will it have priority over its use,or will it be reated as another customer of the facilty? Apologies if these concerns have already been addressed.
|
|
|
Post by alancfc on Jul 3, 2019 11:42:25 GMT
My biggest concern with this is that it doesn't actually provide any income for the club. Its owned by the Trust which is a completely different entity, so no funds gained from the Hub can go into the first team or academy. I understand there will be an agreement to save on costs currently incurred on training pitches, but that's not enough. For all the good the Hub will do, it can't guarantee an increase in profits or revenue for Chester FC. Considering we're being asked to raise £300K, that's not a great return on our money
|
|
|
Post by daveblacon on Jul 3, 2019 15:25:49 GMT
I totally agree with the stangandy's several posts on this thread.If we are to remain a fan owned club the best way we will survive is by producing more excellent players like Sam Hughes through our Academy.Callum and his team of coaches have so far done wonders in producing some very talented players using very poor facilities and surely this project will not only benefit the first team squad but assist the Academy in our attracting our next batch of trainees.Personally I believe the investment of £300k is relatively small compared to the return in investment we will surely get when one of our Academy players is bought for the over inflated price clubs above us in higher leagues seem willing to pay?
|
|
|
Post by rcb on Jul 3, 2019 15:29:26 GMT
I totally agree with the stangandy's several posts on this thread.If we are to remain a fan owned club the best way we will survive is by producing more excellent players like Sam Hughes through our Academy.Callum and his team of coaches have so far done wonders in producing some very talented players using very poor facilities and surely this project will not only benefit the first team squad but assist the Academy in our attracting our next batch of trainees.Personally I believe the investment of £300k is relatively small compared to the return in investment we will surely get when one of our Academy players is bought for the over inflated price clubs above us in higher leagues seem willing to pay? National League is more attractive than our league.
|
|
|
Post by stangandy on Jul 3, 2019 16:18:15 GMT
£50k return annually on a £300k investment is a great return - 16%. But that's not all. The Academy and first team will be using the facility during the day when community use is limited - haven't put a price on that but there is one. As the Trust expands because we have a great facility to base our community activities and we can increase the opportunities for our players to earn as coaches etc. We have already helped the Club directly with players like Hughes, Crawford, Roberts etc all earning for community activity thereby making the club more attractive to players. This is not a direct subsidy to the Club but it is a direct help to the managers as they seek to persuade players to join us and stay with us.
We have been through a very turbulent time as a football club - you could say for about 30 years before we went pop and had to reform. During that time the traditional way people become supporters was through family or parental influence and then maybe through peer pressure. Because the club over that time was so abject in marketing and building its profile we have lost a lot of that family influence so we have to do it ourselves. I can't think of many better ways than getting into as many local schools as possible and promoting our club as the local brand leader for football - as we are doing increasingly at the moment. Getting this facility adds to our capacity to promote the club in the community in many ways as has been said in previous posts.
Apologies if this comes over as grumpy - its not meant to be - but we have a target of £300k to be raised from a variety of sources - and we hope (and have confidence) that there will be some big commercial contributions. And we are deliberately asking supporters to help us raise as much as possible so we can have the best facility we can get. If we fall short it will be a shame but it won't stop the project - we will just have to settle for a little less than we would like in terms of facilities or take a bit more time to get there.
|
|
|
Post by Si on Jul 3, 2019 16:19:59 GMT
The benefits are clear: A permanent base for our academy, giving us the platform to attract the base young players that will hopefully result in making it to the first team and being sold for profit.
The extra footfall into a facility run by our trust will offer lots of marketing opportunities which could result in improved attendances for the club.
A top class facility for our first team to rent at a lower cost than what’s currently being paid for rented facilities, whilst preserving our playing surface so that it’s in the best condition possible come matchday.
Potential opportunities for players to coach for the community trust, which is a nice carrot to dangle when trying to attract good players with a low basic wage.
Better facilities attracts better players across all age groups.
A top class sports facility for the city and surrounding area. And 5 mins from our stadium.
Granted, some of the benefits may not be realised until further down the line and some it it relies on the facility being run in a smart and savvy way, but it really is a massive thing for the club to try and get over the line. My fear is that the 300k won’t be raised, and I don’t know where we stand if we don’t get anywhere near that amount.
|
|
|
Post by Harry Lime on Jul 3, 2019 18:30:13 GMT
As I've said in a previous post the project is scaleable. Every penny raised will improve what we can deliver. We are confident we have a viable plan - even with zero extra raised. But we are more ambitious than that. I am somewhat at a loss as to why people keep finding reasons to be negative about what is possibly one of the most positive off field things since our reformation. I hope you're right. I'm not negative about the facility. Just looking at the numbers, and wondering how they expect to raise the money from individuals. I presume it will be from businesses that they expect to raise it. Otherwise they have no chance imo.
|
|
|
Post by gezzer on Jul 3, 2019 20:06:41 GMT
I have been vocal in the past about the clubs vision/strategy for the future (or lack of) and this is the first sign of looking further than next season. I truly believe that that this will make us more sustainable going forward than extending the Blues Bar or Legends Lounge and whilst I applaud SM for his donation to the KGV project he could do worse than make up the difference if required to get us to the £300k required. If we can develop a Sam Hughes every couple of years as a result of this project our future will be secured. Stan Gandy has outlined the many positives to be had and I for one will get behind it any way that I can.
|
|
|
Post by combover on Jul 3, 2019 20:34:16 GMT
I have been vocal in the past about the clubs vision/strategy for the future (or lack of) and this is the first sign of looking further than next season. I truly believe that that this will make us more sustainable going forward than extending the Blues Bar or Legends Lounge and whilst I applaud SM for his donation to the KGV project he could do worse than make up the difference if required to get us to the £300k required. If we can develop a Sam Hughes every couple of years as a result of this project our future will be secured. Stan Gandy has outlined the many positives to be had and I for one will get behind it any way that I can.
|
|
|
Post by combover on Jul 3, 2019 20:35:09 GMT
I have been vocal in the past about the clubs vision/strategy for the future (or lack of) and this is the first sign of looking further than next season. I truly believe that that this will make us more sustainable going forward than extending the Blues Bar or Legends Lounge and whilst I applaud SM for his donation to the KGV project he could do worse than make up the difference if required to get us to the £300k required. If we can develop a Sam Hughes every couple of years as a result of this project our future will be secured. Stan Gandy has outlined the many positives to be had and I for one will get behind it any way that I can. couldn't agree more
|
|
|
Post by scotty on Jul 3, 2019 21:21:15 GMT
I'm a little unsure. All too often these community schemes promise all kinds of benefits which are never realised.
May I ask: if somehow the club had 300K, would it be put into this scheme? Or would, say, 100K go into the bank, 100K go into the first team, 50K go into facilities and 50K into youth development?
|
|
|
Post by banksy on Jul 3, 2019 21:39:58 GMT
Thanks to everyone that has contributed to this thread.
As a member of the board (I don't particularly like saying that but just to give a sense of identity), I would like to say that we as a board are fully behind this scheme and want to see it succeed.
It will change Chester FC for the better believe me.
We have talented youth academy coaches at the club who continue to produce excellent prospects for first team football at our club, and should be given the support to continue this, which of course will benefit the club long term.
Our players need a local place to train, which in itself becomes an identity for all concerned. As mentioned the first team would train on this during the day whilst the scholars would be based here (and they need the best facilities possible too) which would be a massive improvement too.
Regardless of profits, we have been desperately trying to identify a training venue for our first team since we reformed, and now we have that chance. £300k for a facility that will propel us a club is quite simply a chance we cannot lose.
As a member of the FEWG we are looking to increase numbers inside the Deva, and will continue to do so, but this is about the long term future of the club. This opportunity will not come up again where as a club we can look to raise the funds and then it will pay for itself year on year, so to anyone questioning why we should be promoting this I'd actually say why wouldn't we promoting this?
Jeff
|
|
|
Post by stangandy on Jul 3, 2019 22:06:49 GMT
I was going to post to address some of the points raised - fully understand that people need to be sure that what we are going is the best way forward. I would point out that as we are supporter owned and run YOU get to decide what you do with our club. If you disagree - stand for the board, and the Trust (as a separate entity but umbilically tied to the club) are never going to run against the Club Board.
If we were not supporter run your influence would be precisely zero.
But I think Jeff has helpfully expressed the view of the Club board and I would hope that would say a lot. It does for me.
The Community Trust will continue to build support for the scheme that we think is an integral and essential component of building the Chester FC we all want to see - with £1m of public money that otherwise would have gone elsewhere.
|
|
|
Post by avfo on Jul 3, 2019 22:12:50 GMT
£50k return annually on a £300k investment is a great return - 16%. But that's not all. The Academy and first team will be using the facility during the day when community use is limited - haven't put a price on that but there is one. As the Trust expands because we have a great facility to base our community activities and we can increase the opportunities for our players to earn as coaches etc. We have already helped the Club directly with players like Hughes, Crawford, Roberts etc all earning for community activity thereby making the club more attractive to players. This is not a direct subsidy to the Club but it is a direct help to the managers as they seek to persuade players to join us and stay with us. We have been through a very turbulent time as a football club - you could say for about 30 years before we went pop and had to reform. During that time the traditional way people become supporters was through family or parental influence and then maybe through peer pressure. Because the club over that time was so abject in marketing and building its profile we have lost a lot of that family influence so we have to do it ourselves. I can't think of many better ways than getting into as many local schools as possible and promoting our club as the local brand leader for football - as we are doing increasingly at the moment. Getting this facility adds to our capacity to promote the club in the community in many ways as has been said in previous posts. Apologies if this comes over as grumpy - its not meant to be - but we have a target of £300k to be raised from a variety of sources - and we hope (and have confidence) that there will be some big commercial contributions. And we are deliberately asking supporters to help us raise as much as possible so we can have the best facility we can get. If we fall short it will be a shame but it won't stop the project - we will just have to settle for a little less than we would like in terms of facilities or take a bit more time to get there. Is it anticipated that the trust would be in a position to increase the numbers of scholars (thus increasing the income gained from the scheme) once they are based at the hub? Would it be true to say that the more revenue the trust receives, the more programmes could be developed to enable closer links between local schools and the trust/ CFC?
|
|
|
Post by agl on Jul 4, 2019 8:29:26 GMT
Still torn on this. Can we afford it when we are at a low ebb in terms of support and league status and should be throwing everything at promotion, but also can we afford not to? If I've understood, the project effectively gets £1m of free (public) money. But to get this it has to be a community, not Chester FC scheme. We get benefits, which have been outlined. Ultimately, I'm persuaded by the enthusiasm of Banksy and Stan Gandy that it's worth supporting but it's obvious that people still need to be won over on what the club gets from it.. e.g., a base for the youth team (if that's the case) and better chances of finding the next Sam Hughes. Sometimes you just need to keep it simple and spell things out.
|
|
|
Post by Churton Blue on Jul 4, 2019 8:31:12 GMT
£50k return annually on a £300k investment is a great return - 16%. But that's not all. The Academy and first team will be using the facility during the day when community use is limited - haven't put a price on that but there is one. As the Trust expands because we have a great facility to base our community activities and we can increase the opportunities for our players to earn as coaches etc. We have already helped the Club directly with players like Hughes, Crawford, Roberts etc all earning for community activity thereby making the club more attractive to players. This is not a direct subsidy to the Club but it is a direct help to the managers as they seek to persuade players to join us and stay with us. We have been through a very turbulent time as a football club - you could say for about 30 years before we went pop and had to reform. During that time the traditional way people become supporters was through family or parental influence and then maybe through peer pressure. Because the club over that time was so abject in marketing and building its profile we have lost a lot of that family influence so we have to do it ourselves. I can't think of many better ways than getting into as many local schools as possible and promoting our club as the local brand leader for football - as we are doing increasingly at the moment. Getting this facility adds to our capacity to promote the club in the community in many ways as has been said in previous posts. Apologies if this comes over as grumpy - its not meant to be - but we have a target of £300k to be raised from a variety of sources - and we hope (and have confidence) that there will be some big commercial contributions. And we are deliberately asking supporters to help us raise as much as possible so we can have the best facility we can get. If we fall short it will be a shame but it won't stop the project - we will just have to settle for a little less than we would like in terms of facilities or take a bit more time to get there. Is it anticipated that the trust would be in a position to increase the numbers of scholars (thus increasing the income gained from the scheme) once they are based at the hub? Would it be true to say that the more revenue the trust receives, the more programmes could be developed to enable closer links between local schools and the trust/ CFC? The answer is yes to both questions and they are two massive benefits of the project for Chester FC, the Trust and the community. The friendly on Saturday against Wigan is one of a number of fund raising activities for the scheme and I would encourage as many people to get along as possible. As Jeff Banks points out the Club are fully behind this scheme and understand how vital it is for the future.
|
|
|
Post by alancfc on Jul 4, 2019 8:32:07 GMT
Thanks to everyone that has contributed to this thread. As a member of the board (I don't particularly like saying that but just to give a sense of identity), I would like to say that we as a board are fully behind this scheme and want to see it succeed. It will change Chester FC for the better believe me. We have talented youth academy coaches at the club who continue to produce excellent prospects for first team football at our club, and should be given the support to continue this, which of course will benefit the club long term. Our players need a local place to train, which in itself becomes an identity for all concerned. As mentioned the first team would train on this during the day whilst the scholars would be based here (and they need the best facilities possible too) which would be a massive improvement too. Regardless of profits, we have been desperately trying to identify a training venue for our first team since we reformed, and now we have that chance. £300k for a facility that will propel us a club is quite simply a chance we cannot lose. As a member of the FEWG we are looking to increase numbers inside the Deva, and will continue to do so, but this is about the long term future of the club. This opportunity will not come up again where as a club we can look to raise the funds and then it will pay for itself year on year, so to anyone questioning why we should be promoting this I'd actually say why wouldn't we promoting this? Jeff Thanks Jeff, Whilst I don't question the need for long term provision of facilities, I'm concerned that if we ask fans and local business to raise £300K for this, it could realistically be a decade before the fan base could raise funds to such a degree again. Considering this is not a revenue generating or profit making venture, that is a risk. As a question, do we have anyone with financial construction and planning experience on board?
|
|
|
Post by Churton Blue on Jul 4, 2019 8:55:14 GMT
Thanks to everyone that has contributed to this thread. As a member of the board (I don't particularly like saying that but just to give a sense of identity), I would like to say that we as a board are fully behind this scheme and want to see it succeed. It will change Chester FC for the better believe me. We have talented youth academy coaches at the club who continue to produce excellent prospects for first team football at our club, and should be given the support to continue this, which of course will benefit the club long term. Our players need a local place to train, which in itself becomes an identity for all concerned. As mentioned the first team would train on this during the day whilst the scholars would be based here (and they need the best facilities possible too) which would be a massive improvement too. Regardless of profits, we have been desperately trying to identify a training venue for our first team since we reformed, and now we have that chance. £300k for a facility that will propel us a club is quite simply a chance we cannot lose. As a member of the FEWG we are looking to increase numbers inside the Deva, and will continue to do so, but this is about the long term future of the club. This opportunity will not come up again where as a club we can look to raise the funds and then it will pay for itself year on year, so to anyone questioning why we should be promoting this I'd actually say why wouldn't we promoting this? Jeff Thanks Jeff, Whilst I don't question the need for long term provision of facilities, I'm concerned that if we ask fans and local business to raise £300K for this, it could realistically be a decade before the fan base could raise funds to such a degree again. Considering this is not a revenue generating or profit making venture, that is a risk. As a question, do we have anyone with financial construction and planning experience on board? The Trust are working on the project in partnership with CWAC and the Football Foundation which provides all the expertise needed to deliver the project in terms of planning, finance and construction. The project will provide significant cost savings for the Trust, Academy and Club. For example the club are currently paying out eye watering amounts for pre season training facilities. The Trust will have the scope to work in partnership with the Club to provide many other cost savings in lots of ways other than training facilities. Cost savings are the same as income generation to the bottom line.
|
|
|
Post by alancfc on Jul 4, 2019 9:50:45 GMT
Thanks Jeff, Whilst I don't question the need for long term provision of facilities, I'm concerned that if we ask fans and local business to raise £300K for this, it could realistically be a decade before the fan base could raise funds to such a degree again. Considering this is not a revenue generating or profit making venture, that is a risk. As a question, do we have anyone with financial construction and planning experience on board? The Trust are working on the project in partnership with CWAC and the Football Foundation which provides all the expertise needed to deliver the project in terms of planning, finance and construction. The project will provide significant cost savings for the Trust, Academy and Club. For example the club are currently paying out eye watering amounts for pre season training facilities. The Trust will have the scope to work in partnership with the Club to provide many other cost savings in lots of ways other than training facilities. Cost savings are the same as income generation to the bottom line. Cheers Churton, I presume your working on this project? Its good that we've got assistance on this from external bodies, however, I assume we've got our own financial control in place? Also, who is liable for providing the funds for the project if/when it goes over budget, the council or the the Trust? If it falls on the Trust, what resources do we intend to pool the money from? Just to be clear, there is a MAJOR difference between 'Cost Savings' and 'Income Generation'. Initially they may present the same result on a P&L, or slight benefits either way, however only Investment based on Income Generation can sustain the viability of a business.
|
|
|
Post by Hannibal on Jul 4, 2019 11:24:52 GMT
It would be a good idea if the club were to arrange a question and answer session in the Blues Bar so that this can be put to the fans in layman terms with some hard figures about it's benefit to Chester FC. I'm with agl on this and not convinced that I want to put money into it at the detriment of the football team. Like many others I only have a finite amount of money to play with.
|
|
|
Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Jul 4, 2019 11:27:50 GMT
It would be a good idea if the club were to arrange a question and answer session in the Blues Bar so that this can be put to the fans in layman terms with some hard figures about it's benefit to Chester FC. I'm with agl on this and not convinced that I want to put money into it at the detriment of the football team. Like many others I only have a finite amount of money to play with. That’s already happened.
|
|
|
Post by billyw on Jul 4, 2019 13:39:48 GMT
The two richest owners of National League clubs, David Haythornthwaite and Irving Weaver, have invested in similar schemes at AFC Fylde and Harrogate Town. In the case of Harrogate it takes the form of a 3g on the club pitch rather than a stand alone project. These two men are worth over a quarter of a billion each but still understand the importance and value of such schemes to the futures of their clubs. Accrington Stanley who have one of the few sensible private owners in the EFL in Andy Holt are in the process of developing a very similar project. The detractors of the KGV have to consider why these three men and the Chester FC fans who support the idea are wrong and they are right. Simlpy putting money in the pockets of over the hill or crocked footballers is the road to disaster IMO. It also helps that Accrington Stanley’s Community Trust have been awarded a £1 million grant towards their sports hub. Have we applied for a grant?
|
|
|
Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Jul 4, 2019 14:48:59 GMT
The two richest owners of National League clubs, David Haythornthwaite and Irving Weaver, have invested in similar schemes at AFC Fylde and Harrogate Town. In the case of Harrogate it takes the form of a 3g on the club pitch rather than a stand alone project. These two men are worth over a quarter of a billion each but still understand the importance and value of such schemes to the futures of their clubs. Accrington Stanley who have one of the few sensible private owners in the EFL in Andy Holt are in the process of developing a very similar project. The detractors of the KGV have to consider why these three men and the Chester FC fans who support the idea are wrong and they are right. Simlpy putting money in the pockets of over the hill or crocked footballers is the road to disaster IMO. It also helps that Accrington Stanley’s Community Trust have been awarded a £1 million grant towards their sports hub. Have we applied for a grant? We have been given a grant, which is why we only need to raise £300,000 of the £1.6m needed.
|
|
|
Post by Hannibal on Jul 4, 2019 15:13:07 GMT
It also helps that Accrington Stanley’s Community Trust have been awarded a £1 million grant towards their sports hub. Have we applied for a grant? We have been given a grant, which is why we only need to raise £300,000 of the £1.6m needed. Right ~~ I thought the £300k was to be raised by the people of Chester, not just the football club supporters. There is only so many times we can dig deep.
|
|
|
Post by devablue on Jul 4, 2019 15:29:52 GMT
I'm fully behind the KGV and will do my best to donate and raise money for it where possible. The main question I have though regards the first team and scholars use of the facility. Is/would there be a contractual agreement between the council/trust that Chester FC can have full access to the facilities (at a reduced rate) for day time and off-peak hours? I feel like there has to be something written and agreed so that minds cannot be changed, though I do not recall a contractual agreement being spoke about. Can anyone advise?
|
|
|
Post by avfo on Jul 4, 2019 15:42:29 GMT
We have been given a grant, which is why we only need to raise £300,000 of the £1.6m needed. Right ~~ I thought the £300k was to be raised by the people of Chester, not just the football club supporters. There is only so many times we can dig deep. And you'd be right - 'the Community Trust now aims to raise £300,000 through public donations, fundraising events and working with local businesses to bring the plans to fruition.'
|
|