|
Post by bing on Aug 12, 2019 19:24:03 GMT
In reality, what does this 'centre' comprise? Excuse my ignorance!
|
|
|
Post by navajo on Aug 12, 2019 19:39:19 GMT
There won't be a centre built it'll a rent-a-pitch job at Vauxhall Motors or Ellesmere Port Sports Village. Elite centre my arse
|
|
|
Post by bing on Aug 12, 2019 20:14:10 GMT
So really, their 'USP' is selling the dream of league football.
In fact, you might argue we could do this equally as well, providing youngsters with a platform to leap into the football league, albeit not with us for the foreseeable future.
The hub is going to be so important. Need to back this and get it up and running ASAP
|
|
|
Post by agl on Aug 12, 2019 20:28:51 GMT
Will this really have a huge impact? In reality we already compete with teams such as Crewe Alex and we are so far down the pyramid that the really talented kids won't sign for us anyway. The youth set up at Chester has been great for getting kids involved with the club and Callum does a brilliant job, but hasn't exactly been a conveyor belt of talent for the first team. Sam Hughes and Tom Crawford in how many years? Even when they shine they get picked off so quickly, like Crawford and James Jones, that we barely benefit in the short term and we are relying on sell on clauses for further down the line. Waters has been given plenty of chances and I'm not sure he's good enough...I remember a few years ago people were banging on about Tom Peers. We have a few on the fringes at the moment but no one outstanding as far as I'm aware. Its laughable to suggest there's some sort of agenda against youth players...the reality is they ain't good enough yet to be first team regulars. Hopefully we will see some get a chance but they need to be eased in gently, or go out on loan first to learn about the physical side of the game. Our future will depend more on identifying young players at other clubs, such as Jackson, and persuading them that we have a better set up than teams at our level.
|
|
|
Post by cfcyouthacademy on Aug 12, 2019 22:33:36 GMT
Will this really have a huge impact? In reality we already compete with teams such as Crewe Alex and we are so far down the pyramid that the really talented kids won't sign for us anyway. The youth set up at Chester has been great for getting kids involved with the club and Callum does a brilliant job, but hasn't exactly been a conveyor belt of talent for the first team. Sam Hughes and Tom Crawford in how many years? Even when they shine they get picked off so quickly, like Crawford and James Jones, that we barely benefit in the short term and we are relying on sell on clauses for further down the line. Waters has been given plenty of chances and I'm not sure he's good enough...I remember a few years ago people were banging on about Tom Peers. We have a few on the fringes at the moment but no one outstanding as far as I'm aware. Its laughable to suggest there's some sort of agenda against youth players...the reality is they ain't good enough yet to be first team regulars. Hopefully we will see some get a chance but they need to be eased in gently, or go out on loan first to learn about the physical side of the game. Our future will depend more on identifying young players at other clubs, such as Jackson, and persuading them that we have a better set up than teams at our level. Hi agl, I Agree with plenty of what you say and agree in recognising the opportunities the current management have offered to Youth players but must question the comment regarding a conveyor belt of talent. What exactly constitutes a "conveyor belt"? You list three players above in Sam Hughes, Tom Crawford and James Jones, all of which earnt a transfer fee for Chester Football Club having come through the ranks at minimal cost to the football club. The word "undisclosed" is often mistaken with meaning a modest sum when in truth, the combined fees received for these players would cover the cost of the Academy to the Football Club for the next fifteen years, never mind the profit they generated. Equally, I ask the question about what a first team appearance from an Academy Graduate/Youth Team player is worth financially.. Naturally, these players command smaller wages and have obvious potential future value but it is very easy to forget that, for example, Matty Waters has now made over 50 appearances for Chester FC. What are those appearances worth, alongside the other near 100 appearances from the three players named above. It is difficult to put a value on those 150 appearances but it is important to attempt to do so. Equally, Lloyd Marsh-Hughes and Cain Noble have both made double digit appearances for the first team despite both only recently reaching the age of 18. Without having these players to call upon from the Youth Team due to injuries last season, where would the club have looked for personnel. The management have backed these players and clearly believe they have a future with CFC. There is then Iwan Murray and Matthew Thomson. What are there places in the first team squad worth? Realism is everything in Youth Development. I recognise and appreciate the point about players being picked off so soon but these are the harsh realities as to this level of football. As a model, seeing those boys move on for healthy transfer fees with an attachment of clauses relating to appearances and sell on has to be the business model in relation to Youth Development. It is unrealistic to expect to see a home grown player play 100 games for the club and then move on for one million pounds. Those days of clubs being able to do that are gone. The value in developing players now lies in the additionals to transfer fees and future value as well as generating an initial transfer fee. It is unrealistic to expect to sell a player every season or for us to have a first team made up entirely or even as a majority of the first team squad. The Youth Academy is just one means of recruitment and developing players and you reference other successful methods above. I recognise the desire to want to see a constant flow of first team players into the first team but there has to be an element of realism. Please step back and consider what has been achieved on literally next to NOTHING in recent seasons. To suggest that the work of the Academy has been "getting kids involved with the club" is a tad disrespectful (I entirely get that this wasn't intended however) to the highly qualified staff who offer a far more professional programme than meets the eye and have managed to generate a significant amount of money for the football club through their efforts, most of whom are volunteers. There is so much more to the Youth Academy than putting down some cones and putting a session on and enjoying some games. Particularly with the older ones- the individual development plans, the analysis and the environment that is created really is the result of so much hard work. It really isn't a case of turning up and hoping for the best. It was never going to be easy for us to operate a Youth section and I can assure you it isn't getting easier but I promise you the commitment to produce (or continue to produce) is stronger than ever before.
|
|
|
Post by norwegianblue on Aug 13, 2019 0:42:24 GMT
As great as our academy is, it's been coming. There is a ceiling here. We can't be dining on Sam Hughes and Tom Crawford forever We should be fielding at least 1 or 2 academy lads, every game, from the start, we are way off that. Waters/Thomson. Should be regulars. More than capable and both did great last season when the two full backs brought in were found not to be up to it. Having to spend this season behind Taylor and Morgan (who can't get in first XI) Lloyd Marsh-Hughes. A really good centre forward with bags of potential. Way down pecking order and never going to develop with just 5-10 minute cameos chasing the ball down. Cain Noble. Lad needs minutes, the one everyone has down to be a first teamer. Club captain in same position can't even get a start. Iwan Murray. A classy footballer. Needs a run of games, against everyone, not just your Ashton Uniteds. We're crying out for a number 10/attacking midfielder. (some of the lads mentioned are carrying injuries but lets be real, they'd still be warming the bench at best) We're loaning James Jones for the season when we should be bringing in lads like Tom Ruffer. I'd love to see our managers put more faith in youth, but the pressure and demand from fans is too high, I don't blame them in a way. It's promotion or nothing for majority of our fanbase. We're still in the "pub leagues". We really need to look at what we want to be. Chasing the grail of the football league, all or nothing, turnover of players/managers until we get it right or becoming a club known for its academy, developing players the right way (the Crewe of the non leagues). Unfortunately our fans don't have the patience for the latter. Spot on. Currently, the gap between youth and first team is a big step. This is where I believe Mr Murphy’s investment should be going. Instead of wasting money on projects like Legends Longe and Blues Bar extensions, invest in a reserve team structure to bridge the gap. That way the youth players who have a talent can be retained and prepared for the first team. That is what I believe is the real club infrastructure that requires investment.
|
|
|
Post by agl on Aug 13, 2019 7:06:25 GMT
Will this really have a huge impact? In reality we already compete with teams such as Crewe Alex and we are so far down the pyramid that the really talented kids won't sign for us anyway. The youth set up at Chester has been great for getting kids involved with the club and Callum does a brilliant job, but hasn't exactly been a conveyor belt of talent for the first team. Sam Hughes and Tom Crawford in how many years? Even when they shine they get picked off so quickly, like Crawford and James Jones, that we barely benefit in the short term and we are relying on sell on clauses for further down the line. Waters has been given plenty of chances and I'm not sure he's good enough...I remember a few years ago people were banging on about Tom Peers. We have a few on the fringes at the moment but no one outstanding as far as I'm aware. Its laughable to suggest there's some sort of agenda against youth players...the reality is they ain't good enough yet to be first team regulars. Hopefully we will see some get a chance but they need to be eased in gently, or go out on loan first to learn about the physical side of the game. Our future will depend more on identifying young players at other clubs, such as Jackson, and persuading them that we have a better set up than teams at our level. Hi agl, I Agree with plenty of what you say and agree in recognising the opportunities the current management have offered to Youth players but must question the comment regarding a conveyor belt of talent. What exactly constitutes a "conveyor belt"? You list three players above in Sam Hughes, Tom Crawford and James Jones, all of which earnt a transfer fee for Chester Football Club having come through the ranks at minimal cost to the football club. The word "undisclosed" is often mistaken with meaning a modest sum when in truth, the combined fees received for these players would cover the cost of the Academy to the Football Club for the next fifteen years, never mind the profit they generated. Equally, I ask the question about what a first team appearance from an Academy Graduate/Youth Team player is worth financially.. Naturally, these players command smaller wages and have obvious potential future value but it is very easy to forget that, for example, Matty Waters has now made over 50 appearances for Chester FC. What are those appearances worth, alongside the other near 100 appearances from the three players named above. It is difficult to put a value on those 150 appearances but it is important to attempt to do so. Equally, Lloyd Marsh-Hughes and Cain Noble have both made double digit appearances for the first team despite both only recently reaching the age of 18. Without having these players to call upon from the Youth Team due to injuries last season, where would the club have looked for personnel. The management have backed these players and clearly believe they have a future with CFC. There is then Iwan Murray and Matthew Thomson. What are there places in the first team squad worth? Realism is everything in Youth Development. I recognise and appreciate the point about players being picked off so soon but these are the harsh realities as to this level of football. As a model, seeing those boys move on for healthy transfer fees with an attachment of clauses relating to appearances and sell on has to be the business model in relation to Youth Development. It is unrealistic to expect to see a home grown player play 100 games for the club and then move on for one million pounds. Those days of clubs being able to do that are gone. The value in developing players now lies in the additionals to transfer fees and future value as well as generating an initial transfer fee. It is unrealistic to expect to sell a player every season or for us to have a first team made up entirely or even as a majority of the first team squad. The Youth Academy is just one means of recruitment and developing players and you reference other successful methods above. I recognise the desire to want to see a constant flow of first team players into the first team but there has to be an element of realism. Please step back and consider what has been achieved on literally next to NOTHING in recent seasons. To suggest that the work of the Academy has been "getting kids involved with the club" is a tad disrespectful (I entirely get that this wasn't intended however) to the highly qualified staff who offer a far more professional programme than meets the eye and have managed to generate a significant amount of money for the football club through their efforts, most of whom are volunteers. There is so much more to the Youth Academy than putting down some cones and putting a session on and enjoying some games. Particularly with the older ones- the individual development plans, the analysis and the environment that is created really is the result of so much hard work. It really isn't a case of turning up and hoping for the best. It was never going to be easy for us to operate a Youth section and I can assure you it isn't getting easier but I promise you the commitment to produce (or continue to produce) is stronger than ever before. Yes, I could have phrased that better and don't mean to be patronising about the magnificent efforts of Callum and his team. At times last season the youth team was the only bright spark. As you say, maybe we expect too much. I'd be interested to see stats (if they exist) on how many youth players have been successfully brought through at other comparable clubs. Also, how you measure the cost of bringing through the likes of Waters compared with just cherry picking upcoming players from smaller local teams. Totally get it that the youth academy is about much more than just feeding the first team, before anyone gets on my case. What annoys me is posters who just say chuck the kids in, when they have clearly been identified as not being ready/ good enoughjj
|
|
|
Post by Si on Aug 13, 2019 8:34:22 GMT
As great as our academy is, it's been coming. There is a ceiling here. We can't be dining on Sam Hughes and Tom Crawford forever We should be fielding at least 1 or 2 academy lads, every game, from the start, we are way off that. Waters/Thomson. Should be regulars. More than capable and both did great last season when the two full backs brought in were found not to be up to it. Having to spend this season behind Taylor and Morgan (who can't get in first XI) Lloyd Marsh-Hughes. A really good centre forward with bags of potential. Way down pecking order and never going to develop with just 5-10 minute cameos chasing the ball down. Cain Noble. Lad needs minutes, the one everyone has down to be a first teamer. Club captain in same position can't even get a start. Iwan Murray. A classy footballer. Needs a run of games, against everyone, not just your Ashton Uniteds. We're crying out for a number 10/attacking midfielder. (some of the lads mentioned are carrying injuries but lets be real, they'd still be warming the bench at best) We're loaning James Jones for the season when we should be bringing in lads like Tom Ruffer. I'd love to see our managers put more faith in youth, but the pressure and demand from fans is too high, I don't blame them in a way. It's promotion or nothing for majority of our fanbase. We're still in the "pub leagues". We really need to look at what we want to be. Chasing the grail of the football league, all or nothing, turnover of players/managers until we get it right or becoming a club known for its academy, developing players the right way (the Crewe of the non leagues). Unfortunately our fans don't have the patience for the latter. Spot on. Currently, the gap between youth and first team is a big step. This is where I believe Mr Murphy’s investment should be going. Instead of wasting money on projects like Legends Longe and Blues Bar extensions, invest in a reserve team structure to bridge the gap. That way the youth players who have a talent can be retained and prepared for the first team. That is what I believe is the real club infrastructure that requires investment. Without meaning to derail the thread, I think it would be unwise to dismiss improving the bar facilities. Improved facilities would offer a consistent income for the club, whereas in reality we can't always rely on producing a youth team player the quality of Sam and Tom every season. I was in the bar on Saturday and it was a joke - plenty of people deciding against buying another pint due to the size of the queue, others popping their head in and deciding they won't bother at all. All those tenners lost over the course of a season adds up. It needs to be a proper sports bar, with tv's, drinks offers early doors to get people down there, food on sale.....there's so much lost potential there. Not to mention how tired it's looking, which makes it extremely unappealing for hiring for birthday's etc. A mate I was with hit the nail on the head.....different clubs have supporters that will make a day of it, and the game isn't the main attraction - it's often meeting up with your mates early on and have drinks/food etc. Too many people come to our ground at half 2 and leave at 5pm - we'll never generate money if the matchday experience is just the game itself. The themed days are a good idea but in reality we need to extend the matchday for supporters beyond the game, and that will only come through investment in facilities. Getting back on the subject, I've no doubt that a lot of our youngsters have the talent, but as you mentioned the gap is so big between youth team football and National League North. It would be great to be able to field a reserve team, but in the meantime we also need to show some patience and understanding when we don't just throw them in the deep end and look to loan them out instead. There is an argument for Noble being a more integral part of our squad, but in reality he'll learn loads from a few months of regular football at Hyde rather than the odd game/sub appearances/Cheshire Cup games for us. Stopforth and Roberts aren't getting any younger, and Burton is Burton, so looking ahead to next season you could easily slot him in. Hopefully we've got a recall for him should we get injuries in that area.
|
|
|
Post by agl on Aug 13, 2019 9:50:14 GMT
As great as our academy is, it's been coming. There is a ceiling here. We can't be dining on Sam Hughes and Tom Crawford forever We should be fielding at least 1 or 2 academy lads, every game, from the start, we are way off that. Waters/Thomson. Should be regulars. More than capable and both did great last season when the two full backs brought in were found not to be up to it. Having to spend this season behind Taylor and Morgan (who can't get in first XI) Lloyd Marsh-Hughes. A really good centre forward with bags of potential. Way down pecking order and never going to develop with just 5-10 minute cameos chasing the ball down. Cain Noble. Lad needs minutes, the one everyone has down to be a first teamer. Club captain in same position can't even get a start. Iwan Murray. A classy footballer. Needs a run of games, against everyone, not just your Ashton Uniteds. We're crying out for a number 10/attacking midfielder. (some of the lads mentioned are carrying injuries but lets be real, they'd still be warming the bench at best) We're loaning James Jones for the season when we should be bringing in lads like Tom Ruffer. I'd love to see our managers put more faith in youth, but the pressure and demand from fans is too high, I don't blame them in a way. It's promotion or nothing for majority of our fanbase. We're still in the "pub leagues". We really need to look at what we want to be. Chasing the grail of the football league, all or nothing, turnover of players/managers until we get it right or becoming a club known for its academy, developing players the right way (the Crewe of the non leagues). Unfortunately our fans don't have the patience for the latter. Nice sentiments but have to take you to task on the last par. 'Chasing the Holy Grail of the football league, all or nothing'....I'm not sure you could identify a single poster on here who has that view. IMO there's an acceptance that there's no prospect of football league, but we must get back to playing national football in the short term. Clubs like Halifax have shown that's possible and, even thought our attendance was disappointing on Saturday, it was better than all but two of the league above (and only 200 short of Halifax). If we stay in regional football much longer the support will continue to ebb away...the fixtures just aren't enticing, the away teams bring fewer fans and the away trips to rubbish grounds with zero atmosphere aren't much to get excited about. You will always get the diehards, and total respect to them, but let's be honest the quality of the football isn't very good. It's right that the fans have high demands...if we can't at least get in the top 4 or 5 of this league then what's the point? A nice little community club, playing local teams with a good youth set up? Not for me, sorry. So, if I'm one of those lacking patience then yes, hold my hands up. I'm not saying break the bank, not saying spend beyond our means - only that we shouldn't get distracted by creating a great infrastructure at the expense of the first team. As it is, we must lose the best kids because the parents would rather they go to league teams. Exactly why Shrewsbury have spotted a gap in the market. At the moment we seem to be producing young players who are just about on the fringes of National league North...it's a big jump for them to go into the football leagues and actually make us any money. I've seen most of the players above and while they clearly have ability, they are just too inconsistent to play week in week out (sometimes twice a week) and some simply aren't yet strong enough. And the idea about not giving kids a chance is just plain wrong...if Waters hadn't come through the youth system he would have been bombed out long ago. We could easily 'give youth a chance' but do you really want to be watching us lose two or three nil at home every week?
|
|
|
Post by iandychesterfc on Aug 13, 2019 12:28:37 GMT
This league is appealing regards the teams we are playing like York, Boston etc its the standard thats the problem.
In the league the standard is better but theres so many southern nothing teams.
|
|
|
Post by Harry Lime on Aug 13, 2019 15:14:02 GMT
This league is appealing regards the teams we are playing like York, Boston etc its the standard thats the problem. In the league the standard is better but theres so many southern nothing teams. I wouldn't expect our crowds to increase if we move up into the National League. As you say, there are loads of nothing Southern teams. I'd actually prefer to watch most of teams in this league, than the Dover, Boreham Wood and Sutton type teams. You can also get to most of the games too, if you wish. We'd also lose more games, and our costs would be a lot higher. Unless by some fluke we got promoted again, I'm not sure where the benefit lies. Difficult to see how we compete at the top of that league. Sad, but true.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2019 18:09:47 GMT
This league is appealing regards the teams we are playing like York, Boston etc its the standard thats the problem. In the league the standard is better but theres so many southern nothing teams. I wouldn't expect our crowds to increase if we move up into the National League. As you say, there are loads of nothing Southern teams. I'd actually prefer to watch most of teams in this league, than the Dover, Boreham Wood and Sutton type teams. You can also get to most of the games too, if you wish. We'd also lose more games, and our costs would be a lot higher. Unless by some fluke we got promoted again, I'm not sure where the benefit lies. Difficult to see how we compete at the top of that league. Sad, but true. I dread to think what budget we would need to compete in the National League, or indeed where this money would come from?
|
|
|
Post by jb on Aug 13, 2019 18:57:09 GMT
This league is appealing regards the teams we are playing like York, Boston etc its the standard thats the problem. In the league the standard is better but theres so many southern nothing teams. I wouldn't expect our crowds to increase if we move up into the National League. As you say, there are loads of nothing Southern teams. I'd actually prefer to watch most of teams in this league, than the Dover, Boreham Wood and Sutton type teams. You can also get to most of the games too, if you wish. We'd also lose more games, and our costs would be a lot higher. Unless by some fluke we got promoted again, I'm not sure where the benefit lies. Difficult to see how we compete at the top of that league. Sad, but true. Halifax are making a decent go of it. Dare to dream!
|
|
|
Post by ThrobsBlackHat on Aug 14, 2019 11:11:20 GMT
Shrewsbury fan in peace.
I can see the difficulty for Chester fans. It feels a little discourteous to not have mentioned it at club to club level.
Ironically enough there is a big a West Brom development school in Shrewsbury now, which is probably why we've started to spread our net wider.
There's some good young talents come through at Shrewsbury, and a definite pathway to League football. But again many of the best local kids in Shropshire get snapped up by Wolves and Stoke.
So I guess it's a dog eat dog world which is sad because so many of the kids will get spat out anyway.
|
|
|
Post by agl on Aug 14, 2019 12:40:16 GMT
Same down here, near Brighton, where I live. Chelsea have a massive presence and run academies, summer schools. The cynic in me thinks it's all a plot to flog kits to kids.
|
|
|
Post by billyw on Aug 14, 2019 15:45:30 GMT
Shrewsbury fan in peace. I can see the difficulty for Chester fans. It feels a little discourteous to not have mentioned it at club to club level. Ironically enough there is a big a West Brom development school in Shrewsbury now, which is probably why we've started to spread our net wider. There's some good young talents come through at Shrewsbury, and a definite pathway to League football. But again many of the best local kids in Shropshire get snapped up by Wolves and Stoke. So I guess it's a dog eat dog world which is sad because so many of the kids will get spat out anyway. The Law of the Jungle, I'm afraid.
|
|
|
Post by MPW on Aug 14, 2019 17:03:44 GMT
Shrewsbury fan in peace. I can see the difficulty for Chester fans. It feels a little discourteous to not have mentioned it at club to club level. Ironically enough there is a big a West Brom development school in Shrewsbury now, which is probably why we've started to spread our net wider. There's some good young talents come through at Shrewsbury, and a definite pathway to League football. But again many of the best local kids in Shropshire get snapped up by Wolves and Stoke. So I guess it's a dog eat dog world which is sad because so many of the kids will get spat out anyway. Yeah, we’ve only got Liverpool, Everton, Man United and Man City to worry about picking up our best youngsters.
|
|
|
Post by South Wirral Blue on Aug 14, 2019 17:32:58 GMT
Everything about this is classless and totally shameless. It shows what kind of club they are.
|
|
|
Post by jb on Aug 14, 2019 18:03:09 GMT
Shrewsbury fan in peace. I can see the difficulty for Chester fans. It feels a little discourteous to not have mentioned it at club to club level. Ironically enough there is a big a West Brom development school in Shrewsbury now, which is probably why we've started to spread our net wider. There's some good young talents come through at Shrewsbury, and a definite pathway to League football. But again many of the best local kids in Shropshire get snapped up by Wolves and Stoke. So I guess it's a dog eat dog world which is sad because so many of the kids will get spat out anyway. Is this all because there is a University of Chester in Shrewsbury? To be honest it sounds like your club has got this former Chester kids coach in and a few of his protégés and they’re all going for a kick around in Grosvenor Park. It doesn’t sound very professional on all levels I’m afraid.
|
|
|
Post by sealandender1 on Aug 14, 2019 19:06:34 GMT
Back in the early 60’s, Wolves, Preston and Sheff. Wed had scouts sniffing around Chester. Laurence Williams spent time at Wolves, Peter ‘Sammy’ Buckley was at PNE and Graham Pugh, who later signed for his home town club played at Wednesday. At the same time, Geoff Reynolds (Overleigh Secondary Modern), who was the Chester Schools FA representative was always involved in scouting for many league clubs. Unsure of the work that Harry McNally did for Leicester during his time with ourselves but I think it was in some scouting role. At the end of the day, youngsters have been scouted for years and it is up to the lads and their parents who they choose to start their careers with. Right now, Chester FC youth system is extremely well organised and will appeal to many lads, rather than try their luck at a bigger club.
|
|
|
Post by iandychesterfc on Aug 15, 2019 12:15:09 GMT
I wouldn't expect our crowds to increase if we move up into the National League. As you say, there are loads of nothing Southern teams. I'd actually prefer to watch most of teams in this league, than the Dover, Boreham Wood and Sutton type teams. You can also get to most of the games too, if you wish. We'd also lose more games, and our costs would be a lot higher. Unless by some fluke we got promoted again, I'm not sure where the benefit lies. Difficult to see how we compete at the top of that league. Sad, but true. I dread to think what budget we would need to compete in the National League, or indeed where this money would come from? The money would come from turning the club into an enterprise with a £2m turnover. We seem very far away from that now given the decision on KGV
|
|