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Post by exiled on Jul 25, 2020 23:14:56 GMT
To go full on Crewe there would need to be a number of different strands. Increasing the scouting network. Having a developed progression path for young players. Developing extensive links with local clubs to send our young players out on loan and monitoring their progress. Identifying the best young players in the Evostick leagues etc at an early stage and signing the best young players on, that have been disgarded by football league clubs Signing players on that have pace or physicality and can be developed. And any funds from sales re-cycled back into the system. We need to keep developing our own Sam Hughes's and Tom Crawfords, but we need to sign on the Jackson's Hinnegans and Alabi's of this world. All that takes resources, patience and real commitment. Doing a 'Crewe' is a thing of the past. Gone are the days you can sell an Ian Rush and make millions. A club at our level usually ends up getting next to nowt just a small 'development fee'. As for developing players from our own set up the best we can do is (as some have said) bring them through for our own use. If a kid gets sent out on loan it is usually because he is not good enough to break into the 1st team. If they drop a couple of divisions and don't really shine or stand out, then that is their level. Remember. We are a NLN club and we are not going to attract the cream of the crop. Even when we do find a good un we won't benefit from it unless he is for our own use in our first team. But if they are good enough to play at a higher level then clubs at our level just get the player stolen off us, with little to show for it. Crewe were the masters of bringing youngsters through their youth system, and making money in the days of Dario Gradi. A lot has changed since then.Any football league club with an academy can take a youngster from a club at our level for nothing. So players under 16 without a contract can do what they want. Our best bet is to hope any promising youngsters we have stay under the radar of clubs like Tranmere etc. Feed into the first team and develope to the standard that football league clubs become interested. At least we can ask a fee then
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Post by agl on Jul 27, 2020 15:49:02 GMT
Imo the problem is that there is no bridge between the academy and the first team. These kids might look good in youth games but they're not strong enough to play week in week out at first team level. The only option is to send them out on loan, to a lower level and hope they cope with the physicality. It's a real issue because if the best of the academy players aren't coming through to be regular first team players at regional level it does beg the question...what's the point? Arguably the only successes have been Sam Hughes, Tom Crawford, James Jones and Matty Waters in ten years. Tom Peers has done OK elsewhere but didn't show much for us, so there's nothing so far to suggest releasing these lads is a mistake. I tend to reject the argument that they're not given a chance by the managers, who must be well aware of their ability and limitations. We must also be losing out to the likes of Crewe and Shrewsbury, who can offer the best kids a league set up and the carrot of professional football, whereas all we can offer is part time if they make it. Of course the youth system is an asset for the club in terms of the community, getting the kids and their parents connected to the club but would also be interested to know how many become long term fans once they/ their kids leave us? Would also be interested to know what is the cost of the youth system over the decade since reformation taking into account sponsorship, transfer fees received etc. When you see league clubs scrapoing youth set ups it does leave you scratching your head a bit, and wondering whether we might be better off investing in scouting players from leagues below and using money to hoover a few up who look promising. I’m really sorry, but I have to pick this up as I am staggered by the comments in this post. Firstly, you have listed the “only successes” as 5 players that went on to be solid members of the first team squad In the past five seasons. In that “only” five successes, we have sold one to the Premier League for a six figure transfer fee, another to the Football League for a five figure transfer fee, ANOTHER to the Football League for a significant fee and one of those mentioned above has made over 60 first team appearances. Can you find me another club at this level that have been more productive please? Equally, can you find a club or equal resource that has got anywhere this kind of productivity? A question worth raising, the appearances from Murray, Thomson, Noble. What were they worth? Particularly at a time when the club has injuries. What did this save us potentially by having these boys to make appearances. The cost of the Youth section needs spelling out, you are dead right. In recent seasons, it has had a COST TO CHESTER FC OF NO MORE THAN £11k per season. Over 85% of the cost incurred by the Academy must be met by a mix of education funding, subscriptions and fundraising. Are you aware of the subscription payments we require from parents to make ends meet? We have generated north of £155k in transfer fees alone. This absolutely outweighs the cost of the Academy since it’s formation by an enormous amount of money. I notice the comment about losing players to Shrewsbury and Crewe. When did this happen? We have moved plenty of younger players on to Category 1 football. Regarding the last comment, “what’s the point?”, but surely it’s worth knowing at least a small collection of the facts before suggesting the most profitable department of the football club in recent years isn’t performing. But yes, perhaps, what is the point after all? Thanks for taking time to answer. I assume you know what you are talking about, so I will obviously need to revise my views on the academy. It's the first time I've seen the £155k figure and I'm not sure it's widely known, or that the academy has run at big net profit since reformation. In that case, of course it's an asset. My point about Crewe and Shrewsbury was not that we lose existing academy players to them, but that kids are more likely to sign for them in the first place as they can offer the lure of professional league football. Is that not the case? I am genuinely interested to know, as I was under the impression Shrewsbury had set up a recruiting campaign in Chester for that reason? My concern is that because we are at sixth tier level, we not only can't compete with the likes of Liverpool (as in the past) but also traditional lower league rivals. Re Murray, Thomson and Noble, I suppose it's up to individuals to decide whether they regard them as successes or not. Personally, I am disappointed when our best academy players drift away after being around the fringes of the first team. If that's the norm, again I bow to your better knowledge on what is being achieved elsewhere. Again, genuine question, what do you think can be done to make the hit rate better? There seems to be a perception that youth isn't being given a chance by management (I don't agree).
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Post by Churton Blue on Jul 27, 2020 15:59:20 GMT
I’m really sorry, but I have to pick this up as I am staggered by the comments in this post. Firstly, you have listed the “only successes” as 5 players that went on to be solid members of the first team squad In the past five seasons. In that “only” five successes, we have sold one to the Premier League for a six figure transfer fee, another to the Football League for a five figure transfer fee, ANOTHER to the Football League for a significant fee and one of those mentioned above has made over 60 first team appearances. Can you find me another club at this level that have been more productive please? Equally, can you find a club or equal resource that has got anywhere this kind of productivity? A question worth raising, the appearances from Murray, Thomson, Noble. What were they worth? Particularly at a time when the club has injuries. What did this save us potentially by having these boys to make appearances. The cost of the Youth section needs spelling out, you are dead right. In recent seasons, it has had a COST TO CHESTER FC OF NO MORE THAN £11k per season. Over 85% of the cost incurred by the Academy must be met by a mix of education funding, subscriptions and fundraising. Are you aware of the subscription payments we require from parents to make ends meet? We have generated north of £155k in transfer fees alone. This absolutely outweighs the cost of the Academy since it’s formation by an enormous amount of money. I notice the comment about losing players to Shrewsbury and Crewe. When did this happen? We have moved plenty of younger players on to Category 1 football. Regarding the last comment, “what’s the point?”, but surely it’s worth knowing at least a small collection of the facts before suggesting the most profitable department of the football club in recent years isn’t performing. But yes, perhaps, what is the point after all? Thanks for taking time to answer. I assume you know what you are talking about, so I will obviously need to revise my views on the academy. It's the first time I've seen the £155k figure and I'm not sure it's widely known, or that the academy has run at big net profit since reformation. In that case, of course it's an asset. My point about Crewe and Shrewsbury was not that we lose existing academy players to them, but that kids are more likely to sign for them in the first place as they can offer the lure of professional league football. Is that not the case? I am genuinely interested to know, as I was under the impression Shrewsbury had set up a recruiting campaign in Chester for that reason? My concern is that because we are at sixth tier level, we not only can't compete with the likes of Liverpool (as in the past) but also traditional lower league rivals. Re Murray, Thomson and Noble, I suppose it's up to individuals to decide whether they regard them as successes or not. Personally, I am disappointed when our best academy players drift away after being around the fringes of the first team. If that's the norm, again I bow to your better knowledge on what is being achieved elsewhere. Again, genuine question, what do you think can be done to make the hit rate better? There seems to be a perception that youth isn't being given a chance by management (I don't agree). Which young players were given a chance in Season 2019-20 ?
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Post by agl on Jul 27, 2020 16:11:20 GMT
There were several in the squad, or out on loan, but obviously deemed not good enough for the first team. Why wouldn't the managers play them otherwise? The poster calling himself cfcyouthacademy might give an opinion.
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Post by Harry Lime on Jul 27, 2020 16:15:13 GMT
Thanks for taking time to answer. I assume you know what you are talking about, so I will obviously need to revise my views on the academy. It's the first time I've seen the £155k figure and I'm not sure it's widely known, or that the academy has run at big net profit since reformation. In that case, of course it's an asset. My point about Crewe and Shrewsbury was not that we lose existing academy players to them, but that kids are more likely to sign for them in the first place as they can offer the lure of professional league football. Is that not the case? I am genuinely interested to know, as I was under the impression Shrewsbury had set up a recruiting campaign in Chester for that reason? My concern is that because we are at sixth tier level, we not only can't compete with the likes of Liverpool (as in the past) but also traditional lower league rivals. Re Murray, Thomson and Noble, I suppose it's up to individuals to decide whether they regard them as successes or not. Personally, I am disappointed when our best academy players drift away after being around the fringes of the first team. If that's the norm, again I bow to your better knowledge on what is being achieved elsewhere. Again, genuine question, what do you think can be done to make the hit rate better? There seems to be a perception that youth isn't being given a chance by management (I don't agree). Which young players were given a chance in Season 2019-20 ? Which ones should have been given an extended run, in your opinion? I'm assuming you mean starting, rather than the odd sub appearance. Marsh-Hughes was injured most of the season. Crilly impressed me in the Runcorn game. Less so in the Tranmere game, against better opposition. Not sure who else there was really except Murray who I'm not sure fitted into the system we played most weeks.
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Jul 27, 2020 16:16:03 GMT
Depends what you mean by “given a chance”.
Never a real consistent run of games to prove their worth last season - one not brilliant performance and they’re out of the team, whereas some of the more senior players can consistently perform under par and play every week.
As I’ve said earlier, managers were going for promotion and our budget is limited so the preference for older more experienced players is completely understandable but the some of the kids we had were better than some of the players keeping them out of the side in my humble opinion.
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Post by agl on Jul 27, 2020 16:19:30 GMT
Depends what you mean by “given a chance”. Never a real consistent run of games to prove their worth last season - one not brilliant performance and they’re out of the team, whereas some of the more senior players can consistently perform under par and play every week. As I’ve said earlier, managers were going for promotion and our budget is limited so the preference for older more experienced players is completely understandable but the some of the kids we had were better than some of the players keeping them out of the side in my humble opinion. Think I'll trust the managers' judgement on that, rather than yours Frank ....if that's OK?
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Jul 27, 2020 16:22:49 GMT
Depends what you mean by “given a chance”. Never a real consistent run of games to prove their worth last season - one not brilliant performance and they’re out of the team, whereas some of the more senior players can consistently perform under par and play every week. As I’ve said earlier, managers were going for promotion and our budget is limited so the preference for older more experienced players is completely understandable but the some of the kids we had were better than some of the players keeping them out of the side in my humble opinion. Think I'll trust the managers' judgement on that, rather than yours Frank ....if that's OK? I’m not bothered, I just think Iwan Murray was better than Elton Ngwatala, hun.
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Post by Jack on Jul 27, 2020 18:40:31 GMT
Think I'll trust the managers' judgement on that, rather than yours Frank ....if that's OK? I’m not bothered, I just think Iwan Murray was better than Elton Ngwatala, hun. He never showed it here, but I do think there's a player in Ngwatala somewhere. He never settled because he was in a different position every week, but he definitely had some ability. On Iwan Murray, my gut reaction is that he might be one we regret. He had great ability on the ball and found pockets of space. I thought the same about Nathan Brown when he left but it that seems to have been the right call so I'm confident the managers know what they're doing/
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Post by sqzl on Jul 27, 2020 20:58:07 GMT
Never been a fan of the mentality that youth players should get a run of games because they’re youth players from our academy. You’re only going to get a chance if you’re pushing the player in that position, nothing to do with age. If the 28 year old playing right wing is twice as good as you, it doesn’t matter if you’re 18, you shouldn’t be playing.
Waters has had to wait a long while for his chances, and he now looks ready to compete at this level. I’m sure we have other academy players that could be capable of pushing the senior pros for places, but that’s providing they’ll improve our squad, not to please the fans who like to see a local lad something through.
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Post by Oaks Blue on Jul 27, 2020 21:06:25 GMT
Never been a fan of the mentality that youth players should get a run of games because they’re youth players from our academy. You’re only going to get a chance if you’re pushing the player in that position, nothing to do with age. If the 28 year old playing right wing is twice as good as you, it doesn’t matter if you’re 18, you shouldn’t be playing. Waters has had to wait a long while for his chances, and he now looks ready to compete at this level. I’m sure we have other academy players that could be capable of pushing the senior pros for places, but that’s providing they’ll improve our squad, not to please the fans who like to see a local lad something through. What a load of crap. How is a youngster supposed to prove he's good enough if he doesn't get a chance in the first team? Youngsters are integrated into a team off the bench, but for some reason we aren't prepared to offer any promising midfielders game time... why is this?
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Post by Arthur's Carpet slipper on Jul 27, 2020 21:33:07 GMT
Doing a 'Crewe' is a thing of the past. Gone are the days you can sell an Ian Rush and make millions. A club at our level usually ends up getting next to nowt just a small 'development fee'. As for developing players from our own set up the best we can do is (as some have said) bring them through for our own use. If a kid gets sent out on loan it is usually because he is not good enough to break into the 1st team. If they drop a couple of divisions and don't really shine or stand out, then that is their level. Remember. We are a NLN club and we are not going to attract the cream of the crop. Even when we do find a good un we won't benefit from it unless he is for our own use in our first team. But if they are good enough to play at a higher level then clubs at our level just get the player stolen off us, with little to show for it. Crewe were the masters of bringing youngsters through their youth system, and making money in the days of Dario Gradi. A lot has changed since then.Any football league club with an academy can take a youngster from a club at our level for nothing. So players under 16 without a contract can do what they want. Our best bet is to hope any promising youngsters we have stay under the radar of clubs like Tranmere etc. Feed into the first team and develope to the standard that football league clubs become interested. At least we can ask a fee then There is another way of looking at this and saying why not target the youth players released from good northwest clubs. Surely it makes sense to take in hungry teenagers with a point to prove?
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Jul 27, 2020 21:34:59 GMT
Crewe were the masters of bringing youngsters through their youth system, and making money in the days of Dario Gradi. A lot has changed since then.Any football league club with an academy can take a youngster from a club at our level for nothing. So players under 16 without a contract can do what they want. Our best bet is to hope any promising youngsters we have stay under the radar of clubs like Tranmere etc. Feed into the first team and develope to the standard that football league clubs become interested. At least we can ask a fee then There is another way of looking at this and saying why not target the youth players released from good northwest clubs. Surely it makes sense to take in hungry teenagers with a point to prove? Sarcevic prime example of that.
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Post by midfieldgeneral on Jul 28, 2020 6:49:38 GMT
Crewe were the masters of bringing youngsters through their youth system, and making money in the days of Dario Gradi. A lot has changed since then.Any football league club with an academy can take a youngster from a club at our level for nothing. So players under 16 without a contract can do what they want. Our best bet is to hope any promising youngsters we have stay under the radar of clubs like Tranmere etc. Feed into the first team and develope to the standard that football league clubs become interested. At least we can ask a fee then There is another way of looking at this and saying why not target the youth players released from good northwest clubs. Surely it makes sense to take in hungry teenagers with a point to prove? Or you make a policy of taking on the best young players, that have been released by league clubs, in the 17-22 year old age bracket. Seems that Brentford havent done too badly from this system. Might be worth spending a bit of time finding out how it works?
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Post by Oaks Blue on Jul 28, 2020 7:35:24 GMT
There is another way of looking at this and saying why not target the youth players released from good northwest clubs. Surely it makes sense to take in hungry teenagers with a point to prove? Or you make a policy of taking on the best young players, that have been released by league clubs, in the 17-22 year old age bracket. Seems that Brentford havent done too badly from this system. Might be worth spending a bit of time finding out how it works? They must have scouts in every corner of the country, i would imagine the costs for employing all the scouts and technology they use to rate the players etc would far outweigh the youth system costs at our level, but worth investigating
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Post by keysersoze on Jul 28, 2020 8:11:04 GMT
Never been a fan of the mentality that youth players should get a run of games because they’re youth players from our academy. You’re only going to get a chance if you’re pushing the player in that position, nothing to do with age. If the 28 year old playing right wing is twice as good as you, it doesn’t matter if you’re 18, you shouldn’t be playing. Waters has had to wait a long while for his chances, and he now looks ready to compete at this level. I’m sure we have other academy players that could be capable of pushing the senior pros for places, but that’s providing they’ll improve our squad, not to please the fans who like to see a local lad something through. What a load of crap. How is a youngster supposed to prove he's good enough if he doesn't get a chance in the first team? Youngsters are integrated into a team off the bench, but for some reason we aren't prepared to offer any promising midfielders game time... why is this? I believe it ultimately boils down to trust. Most managers, at all levels, are constantly under pressure from chairman, fans, media etc to succeed. They need results in the here and now and are (understandably) naturally averse to unnecessary risk when their jobs could depend on it. Example: A manager has a 25+ year old player in their squad. He has league experience (or maybe even played at a higher level). He's 'streetwise'. He's a player the manager trusts. Unless the kid is a stand out star in the making, or injuries or a serious loss of form force their hand, why would they risk replacing their trusted pro with a rookie youngster, an unknown quantity, when a run of poor results could cost them their job?
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Post by bing on Jul 28, 2020 8:51:17 GMT
What a load of crap. How is a youngster supposed to prove he's good enough if he doesn't get a chance in the first team? Youngsters are integrated into a team off the bench, but for some reason we aren't prepared to offer any promising midfielders game time... why is this? I believe it ultimately boils down to trust. Most managers, at all levels, are constantly under pressure from chairman, fans, media etc to succeed. They need results in the here and now and are (understandably) naturally averse to unnecessary risk when their jobs could depend on it. Example: A manager has a 25+ year old player in their squad. He has league experience (or maybe even played at a higher level). He's 'streetwise'. He's a player the manager trusts. Unless the kid is a stand out star in the making, or injuries or a serious loss of form force their hand, why would they risk replacing their trusted pro with a rookie youngster, an unknown quantity, when a run of poor results could cost them their job? It's a fair point - I think a lot of Managers in that scenario do care about the 'here and now'. For us, we need to have an Academy presence though as a) they're generally good players, b) they save us money to spend on experienced players elsewhere in the squad, and c) it would totally disincentivise other up-and-coming youth players if they knew there was no chance they could make the first team.
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Post by exiled on Jul 28, 2020 12:05:17 GMT
I believe it ultimately boils down to trust. Most managers, at all levels, are constantly under pressure from chairman, fans, media etc to succeed. They need results in the here and now and are (understandably) naturally averse to unnecessary risk when their jobs could depend on it. Example: A manager has a 25+ year old player in their squad. He has league experience (or maybe even played at a higher level). He's 'streetwise'. He's a player the manager trusts. Unless the kid is a stand out star in the making, or injuries or a serious loss of form force their hand, why would they risk replacing their trusted pro with a rookie youngster, an unknown quantity, when a run of poor results could cost them their job? It's a fair point - I think a lot of Managers in that scenario do care about the 'here and now'. For us, we need to have an Academy presence though as a) they're generally good players, b) they save us money to spend on experienced players elsewhere in the squad, and c) it would totally disincentivise other up-and-coming youth players if they knew there was no chance they could make the first team. I think that's probably right. Managers are under pressure to deliver success,and also have to be mindful of playing budget, so more likely to sign a player that's already proven at a similar level and play him,rather than take a chance on a youngster and let him develop naturally for a season or two playing regular in the first team. It's shame but a problem most clubs will have.
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Post by CH2 on Jul 28, 2020 13:48:46 GMT
I think this is why the King George V sportshub is so important. If done correctly it'll allow the natural progression from grassroots right through to the youth team and in time, thorough to the first team. It'll give us a bigger presence and with Chester FC written all over it, it will hopefully help garner a reputation for professionalism which will attract players from around the region. It shows the ambition of the club and people should view us as a serious prospect for youth development.
It's no quick fix though and will take a long time before we see the rewards.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2020 12:33:51 GMT
Player's futures will be decided over the coming week
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2020 13:44:26 GMT
Player's futures will be decided over the coming week The way DP has described it, it sounds like there’s going to be some big cuts involved
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Post by devablue on Aug 3, 2020 15:30:13 GMT
Player's futures will be decided over the coming week The way DP has described it, it sounds like there’s going to be some big cuts involved Yep and having offered reduced terms to others I feel like we're going to have to get used to losing more players to other teams in our league / NL
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Aug 3, 2020 15:35:39 GMT
The way DP has described it, it sounds like there’s going to be some big cuts involved Yep and having offered reduced terms to others I feel like we're going to have to get used to losing more players to other teams in our league / NL Other teams haven’t been affected by Covid then?!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2020 15:52:18 GMT
Yep and having offered reduced terms to others I feel like we're going to have to get used to losing more players to other teams in our league / NL Other teams haven’t been affected by Covid then?! Having lost our top scorer and best player to a much smaller club in our league and seeing Darlington sign Maguire and Hunt, Kidderminster buy Morgan-Smith, Telford sign Oswell and Alfreton sign Dan Bradley from Fylde I’m not too sure actually.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 3, 2020 16:15:26 GMT
Other teams haven’t been affected by Covid then?! Having lost our top scorer and best player to a much smaller club in our league and seeing Darlington sign Maguire and Hunt, Kidderminster buy Morgan-Smith, Telford sign Oswell and Alfreton sign Dan Bradley from Fylde I’m not too sure actually. Looks like a few in our league are going all in this season, maybe to capitalise on (you'd expect) the majority being prudent and some likely even struggling. It won't end well for some of those clubs. I think its vital we are shrewd in our business this coming season. Learn to live within our means, more importantly survive and ensure we're competitive for many seasons after.
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Post by devablue on Aug 3, 2020 16:26:50 GMT
Having lost our top scorer and best player to a much smaller club in our league and seeing Darlington sign Maguire and Hunt, Kidderminster buy Morgan-Smith, Telford sign Oswell and Alfreton sign Dan Bradley from Fylde I’m not too sure actually. Looks like a few in our league are going all in this season, maybe to capitalise on (you'd expect) the majority being prudent and some likely even struggling. It won't end well for some of those clubs. I think its vital we are shrewd in our business this coming season. Learn to live within our means, more importantly survive and ensure we're competitive for many seasons after. Yeah, i'm not saying other teams haven't been affected, but there's certainly teams that can capitalise i.e. any team where the owners businesses/income hasn't been affected will certainly be able to lure players away from other clubs with less competition.
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Post by Harry Lime on Aug 3, 2020 16:33:47 GMT
Having lost our top scorer and best player to a much smaller club in our league and seeing Darlington sign Maguire and Hunt, Kidderminster buy Morgan-Smith, Telford sign Oswell and Alfreton sign Dan Bradley from Fylde I’m not too sure actually. Looks like a few in our league are going all in this season, maybe to capitalise on (you'd expect) the majority being prudent and some likely even struggling. It won't end well for some of those clubs. I think its vital we are shrewd in our business this coming season. Learn to live within our means, more importantly survive and ensure we're competitive for many seasons after. Problem for clubs is, we don't actually know our means. Once the crowd limit is known we'll have a better idea. However, that may change during the season, or it may not. We could even see another suspension in crowds, or games stopped altogether. Unless we cover ourselves for that eventuality we could be stuffed. If we do that too much, we may not be competitive at all.
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Aug 3, 2020 18:34:00 GMT
Burton and Stopforth have both left the club.
?Roberts.
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Post by weareblues on Aug 3, 2020 18:35:57 GMT
Burton and Stopforth have both left the club. ?Roberts. Gary’s got £20 on the club announcing he’s left tomorrow I heard
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Post by dmcnally on Aug 3, 2020 18:36:48 GMT
Good news. To the minority still stuck with this ‘Bill and Ben, loyal to their Ramsbottom lot” hope this puts an end to that. Two of their most trusted men gone.
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