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Post by Churton Blue on May 18, 2020 8:42:01 GMT
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Post by Wortleyblue on May 18, 2020 9:33:30 GMT
I see Dale Vince is in favour of salary caps, maybe he's feeling the pinch as well could this be the beginning of the end for Forest Gump (probably not but we can but wish)
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Post by exiled on May 18, 2020 11:00:42 GMT
Restructuring can only be a good thing for league 2, but could be expensive to set up.
Currently league 2 clubs get somewhere in the region of a guaranteed 600k with solidarity payments etc, would the National league clubs joining the new proposed regional League qualify for this level of funding too or would it have to be reduced.
Less to think about for the National league, most clubs at this level have to operate on a shoestring anyway
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Post by happyclapper on May 18, 2020 11:10:16 GMT
Interesting that the theory behind this is that it would cut the cost of travelling and increase attendances as there would be more local derbies. Would it not though decrease the pot of money available from TV and solidarity payments which are about £700k? it would surely halve that if double the number of clubs come into the league? I also notice that wage caps are being talked about in that Hartlepool article - which has got to be a good thing at all levels.
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Post by exiled on May 18, 2020 12:14:16 GMT
Interesting that the theory behind this is that it would cut the cost of travelling and increase attendances as there would be more local derbies. Would it not though decrease the pot of money available from TV and solidarity payments which are about £700k? it would surely halve that if double the number of clubs come into the league? I also notice that wage caps are being talked about in that Hartlepool article - which has got to be a good thing at all levels. That was my thoughts too, double the amount of clubs could be be less guaranteed handouts. Also noticed Port Vale suggesting it probably wouldn't benefit them
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Post by waggoner on May 18, 2020 12:35:35 GMT
Interesting that the theory behind this is that it would cut the cost of travelling and increase attendances as there would be more local derbies. Would it not though decrease the pot of money available from TV and solidarity payments which are about £700k? it would surely halve that if double the number of clubs come into the league? I also notice that wage caps are being talked about in that Hartlepool article - which has got to be a good thing at all levels. That was my thoughts too, double the amount of clubs could be be less guaranteed handouts. Also noticed Port Vale suggesting it probably wouldn't benefit them This is why it is much more likely that Leagues 1 and 2 will be regionalised rather than promote every National league club. Plus as spotted by some others to Promote 24 National league clubs would cost an extra £15m per season in central payments, money the EFL just do not have, and I doubt TV money would be as high for regional football. The League 2 clubs would more likely be expected to take a 300k per season hit to accommodate this idea...can't see that happening! Only solution Regional leagues 1/N and 1/S And Regional National leagues N/S no quibbling about central payments because National don't get any.
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Post by exiled on May 18, 2020 13:00:52 GMT
That was my thoughts too, double the amount of clubs could be be less guaranteed handouts. Also noticed Port Vale suggesting it probably wouldn't benefit them This is why it is much more likely that Leagues 1 and 2 will be regionalised rather than promote every National league club. Plus as spotted by some others to Promote 24 National league clubs would cost an extra £15m per season in central payments, money the EFL just do not have, and I doubt TV money would be as high for regional football. The League 2 clubs would more likely be expected to take a 300k per season hit to accommodate this idea...can't see that happening! Only solution Regional leagues 1/N and 1/S And Regional National leagues N/S no quibbling about central payments because National don't get any. That makes more sense as the club's are already there. Would still need to sort out the different levels of funding though. As I said easy solution regionalising the National league for clubs to benefit. Gets more complicated in the FL.
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Post by waggoner on May 18, 2020 13:09:53 GMT
This is why it is much more likely that Leagues 1 and 2 will be regionalised rather than promote every National league club. Plus as spotted by some others to Promote 24 National league clubs would cost an extra £15m per season in central payments, money the EFL just do not have, and I doubt TV money would be as high for regional football. The League 2 clubs would more likely be expected to take a 300k per season hit to accommodate this idea...can't see that happening! Only solution Regional leagues 1/N and 1/S And Regional National leagues N/S no quibbling about central payments because National don't get any. That makes more sense as the club's are already there. Would still need to sort out the different levels of funding though. As I said easy solution regionalising the National league for clubs to benefit. Gets more complicated in the FL. I doubt if many League 2 clubs would vote for being in effect 50% non league with reduced central payments and trips to Ebbsfleet, Dover, Chor£ley Kings lynn and Bromley on a Tuesday night. It would be all of the former League clubs pushing for this. Notts county, Stockport, Hartlepool, Torquay, Aldershot,Chesterfield Dag&Red Yeovil.....and of course the Goats who would Cull their granny on the front lawn to get into the league by any means they can
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Post by Churton Blue on May 18, 2020 13:14:29 GMT
The salary caps floated for L1 and L2 are £2.5 million and £1.25 million respectively according to this article. www.lythamstannesexpress.co.uk/news/afc-fylde-owner-hopes-national-league-introduces-salary-cap-2855897AFC Fylde Chairman thinks 750k should be the cap for the National League Premier.So it could be around 300k to 375k for NLN and NLS. There will be a salary cap in the National League next season whenever that might be. The only question for me is what will it be set at ? Hope our Board and Managers are factoring this in to their thinking as well as considering when football might be allowed to restart again.
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Post by dc2cfc on May 18, 2020 13:38:49 GMT
The salary caps floated for L1 and L2 are £2.5 million and £1.25 million respectively according to this article. www.lythamstannesexpress.co.uk/news/afc-fylde-owner-hopes-national-league-introduces-salary-cap-2855897AFC Fylde Chairman thinks 750k should be the cap for the National League Premier.So it could be around 300k to 375k for NLN and NLS. There will be a salary cap in the National League next season whenever that might be. The only question for me is what will it be set at ? Hope our Board and Managers are factoring this in to their thinking as well as considering when football might be allowed to restart again. If a salary cap was introduced it would definitely make it more of a level playing field - Rough calculations: National League - 20 players on max £750 a week x 52 weeks = £780,000 NLN/NLS - 20 players on max £400 a week x 44 weeks = £352,000
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Post by exiled on May 18, 2020 14:13:27 GMT
The salary caps floated for L1 and L2 are £2.5 million and £1.25 million respectively according to this article. www.lythamstannesexpress.co.uk/news/afc-fylde-owner-hopes-national-league-introduces-salary-cap-2855897AFC Fylde Chairman thinks 750k should be the cap for the National League Premier.So it could be around 300k to 375k for NLN and NLS. There will be a salary cap in the National League next season whenever that might be. The only question for me is what will it be set at ? Hope our Board and Managers are factoring this in to their thinking as well as considering when football might be allowed to restart again. If a salary cap was introduced it would definitely make it more of a level playing field - Rough calculations: National League - 20 players on max £750 a week x 52 weeks = £780,000 NLN/NLS - 20 players on max £400 a week x 44 weeks = £352,000 It would help, but not too sure if it would level the playing field. I don't think we could spend anywhere near £750k if we got to the National league.
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Post by dc2cfc on May 18, 2020 15:09:53 GMT
If a salary cap was introduced it would definitely make it more of a level playing field - Rough calculations: National League - 20 players on max £750 a week x 52 weeks = £780,000 NLN/NLS - 20 players on max £400 a week x 44 weeks = £352,000 It would help, but not too sure if it would level the playing field. I don't think we could spend anywhere near £750k if we got to the National league. Yes agreed that we wouldn't spend that much at Chester, meant it in terms of when Forest Green/Eastleigh/Salford were spending 1500 a week on players in the National League.
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Post by Churton Blue on May 18, 2020 15:44:14 GMT
The salary caps floated for L1 and L2 are £2.5 million and £1.25 million respectively according to this article. www.lythamstannesexpress.co.uk/news/afc-fylde-owner-hopes-national-league-introduces-salary-cap-2855897AFC Fylde Chairman thinks 750k should be the cap for the National League Premier.So it could be around 300k to 375k for NLN and NLS. There will be a salary cap in the National League next season whenever that might be. The only question for me is what will it be set at ? Hope our Board and Managers are factoring this in to their thinking as well as considering when football might be allowed to restart again. If a salary cap was introduced it would definitely make it more of a level playing field - Rough calculations: National League - 20 players on max £750 a week x 52 weeks = £780,000 NLN/NLS - 20 players on max £400 a week x 44 weeks = £352,000 Whatever salary cap is introduced in the National League the biggest factor will be what happens in L1 and L2. Dale Vince is suggesting £3.5 million and £2 million so I guess there will be a wide range of differing opinions. A L2 clubs gets about 900k in central funding according to vitalfootball.co.uk whilst a National League club get 58k. If L2 bring in a £1.25 million salary cap as per the Hartlepool Mail piece then the difference would be 350k in L2 between the amount of central funding and the cap. Working on the same calculation for the National League the difference would be 690k if Mr Haythornthwaite gets his way. That would appear to make no sense. However if Dale Vince is nearer the mark then it might stack up as a coherent argument. I would think that the National League will wait to see what the EFL do with the salary cap particularly as they have done that in regard to promotion and the play offs. There will then be a knock on effect. I think the salary cap for the NLN could end up being between 250k and 300k but it all depends on what the EFL do imo.
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Post by waggoner on May 18, 2020 17:36:09 GMT
If a salary cap was introduced it would definitely make it more of a level playing field - Rough calculations: National League - 20 players on max £750 a week x 52 weeks = £780,000 NLN/NLS - 20 players on max £400 a week x 44 weeks = £352,000 Whatever salary cap is introduced in the National League the biggest factor will be what happens in L1 and L2. Dale Vince is suggesting £3.5 million and £2 million so I guess there will be a wide range of differing opinions. A L2 clubs gets about 900k in central funding according to vitalfootball.co.uk whilst a National League club get 58k. If L2 bring in a £1.25 million salary cap as per the Hartlepool Mail piece then the difference would be 450k in L2 between the amount of central funding and the cap. Working on the same calculation for the National League the difference would be 690k if Mr Haythornthwaite gets his way. That would appear to make no sense. However if Dale Vince is nearer the mark then it might stack up as a coherent argument. I would think that the National League will wait to see what the EFL do with the salary cap particularly as they have done that in regard to promotion and the play offs. There will then be a knock on effect. I think the salary cap for the NLN could end up being between 250k and 300k but it all depends on what the EFL do imo. This figure if brought in would be very doable for us
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Post by dmcnally on May 18, 2020 17:55:16 GMT
Why does it have to be a universal cap throughout the league? Could it not be measured in accordance with a particular income like gate revenue?
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Post by exiled on May 18, 2020 18:31:34 GMT
Why does it have to be a universal cap throughout the league? Could it not be measured in accordance with a particular income like gate revenue? Not sure, but it would level the playing field for clubs like ours, and give us a realistic chance to reach the football league.
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Post by superman on May 18, 2020 18:44:30 GMT
Whatever salary cap is introduced in the National League the biggest factor will be what happens in L1 and L2. Dale Vince is suggesting £3.5 million and £2 million so I guess there will be a wide range of differing opinions. A L2 clubs gets about 900k in central funding according to vitalfootball.co.uk whilst a National League club get 58k. If L2 bring in a £1.25 million salary cap as per the Hartlepool Mail piece then the difference would be 450k in L2 between the amount of central funding and the cap. Working on the same calculation for the National League the difference would be 690k if Mr Haythornthwaite gets his way. That would appear to make no sense. However if Dale Vince is nearer the mark then it might stack up as a coherent argument. I would think that the National League will wait to see what the EFL do with the salary cap particularly as they have done that in regard to promotion and the play offs. There will then be a knock on effect. I think the salary cap for the NLN could end up being between 250k and 300k but it all depends on what the EFL do imo. This figure if brought in would be very doable for us Very doable, but is it feasible to run the hybrid model on such a cap or are we very much back in the realm of part time only?
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Post by Churton Blue on May 18, 2020 19:36:21 GMT
Why does it have to be a universal cap throughout the league? Could it not be measured in accordance with a particular income like gate revenue? In Rugby League the Super League does have dispensations. The key ones are listed here but nothing mentioned re gate revenue. www.rugby-league.com/salary_cap_regulations I would guess the National League would like to keep it as simple as possible if one is introduced.
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Post by Churton Blue on May 18, 2020 19:48:57 GMT
This figure if brought in would be very doable for us Very doable, but is it feasible to run the hybrid model on such a cap or are we very much back in the realm of part time only? That is a very good question for the Board and the managers. The National League may not follow the lead of the EFL but I think the odds must be very high that they will so hopefully they are planning for such an eventuality when the NLN returns. When that will be is very hard to predict at the moment...... October 2020, January 2021 or August 2021 ?
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Post by utb on May 18, 2020 22:26:52 GMT
Why does it have to be a universal cap throughout the league? Could it not be measured in accordance with a particular income like gate revenue? Because it wouldn't be fair on ambitious smaller clubs who want to spend more money to give their teams a better chance of success. A universal cap means a level playing field and that's how it should be if one was to be introduced.
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Post by henry on May 19, 2020 17:14:52 GMT
There could be difficulities when a team gets promoted or relegated .
If a team gets relegated from a higher division and has expensive players under contract would they have to be offloaded to meet the salary cap?
Similarly if a team is promoted to league 1 then they would need to compete with teams with much higher paid players than they had been allowed in division 2 S/N and quickly need to spend big to survive.
Overall who ever is making decisions must be aware of the law of unintended consequenses
Incidentally, a game between say Crewe and Chorley looks a bit of a mismatch
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Post by dmcnally on May 19, 2020 18:52:13 GMT
Why does it have to be a universal cap throughout the league? Could it not be measured in accordance with a particular income like gate revenue? Because it wouldn't be fair on ambitious smaller clubs who want to spend more money to give their teams a better chance of success. A universal cap means a level playing field and that's how it should be if one was to be introduced. Smaller clubs spending more towards success, beyond their income, is why football is in this position, no? Forest Green? Fleetwood? Salford? I'm essentially going for a FFP system over a wage cap.
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Post by exiled on May 19, 2020 19:02:58 GMT
Because it wouldn't be fair on ambitious smaller clubs who want to spend more money to give their teams a better chance of success. A universal cap means a level playing field and that's how it should be if one was to be introduced. Smaller clubs spending more towards success, beyond their income, is why football is in this position, no? Forest Green? Fleetwood? Salford? I'm essentially going for a FFP system over a wage cap. What’s an FFP system?
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Post by dmcnally on May 19, 2020 19:29:50 GMT
Smaller clubs spending more towards success, beyond their income, is why football is in this position, no? Forest Green? Fleetwood? Salford? I'm essentially going for a FFP system over a wage cap. What’s an FFP system? Financial Fair Play www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/29361839
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Post by exiled on May 19, 2020 19:58:51 GMT
Yes it could work. Probably still need some sort of salary cap though as well IMO.
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Post by waggoner on May 19, 2020 20:47:52 GMT
Yes it could work. Probably still need some sort of salary cap though as well IMO. There is always a way to get around a salary cap. If a player in National league north gets say £500 a week. What is to stop him having a 2nd job at the club as the 'window cleaner' getting 2k a week? However you try to level the playing field there will always be some dodgy shysters trying to get around it by unfair means.
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Post by exiled on May 19, 2020 22:43:03 GMT
Yes it could work. Probably still need some sort of salary cap though as well IMO. There is always a way to get around a salary cap. If a player in National league north gets say £500 a week. What is to stop him having a 2nd job at the club as the 'window cleaner' getting 2k a week? However you try to level the playing field there will always be some dodgy shysters trying to get around it by unfair means. Yes but as a wealthy owner you could also get around financial fair play,by ploughing loads of cash in as sponsorship. As you say plenty to think about. Clubs will always try to exploit loopholes.
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Post by utb on May 20, 2020 22:27:17 GMT
Because it wouldn't be fair on ambitious smaller clubs who want to spend more money to give their teams a better chance of success. A universal cap means a level playing field and that's how it should be if one was to be introduced. Smaller clubs spending more towards success, beyond their income, is why football is in this position, no? Forest Green? Fleetwood? Salford? I'm essentially going for a FFP system over a wage cap. FFP is a terrible system that should be scrapped and thankfully looks to be headed that way if Arsene Wenger has anything to do with it. It encourages a closed shop mentality and prevents ambitious clubs from spending money to try and break into the established hierarchy. Take the Premier League for example. Everton, Wolves and soon to be Newcastle are three clubs off the top of my head with incredibly wealthy and ambitious owners who want to do what Man City and Chelsea did back in the noughties and Blackburn before them, invest mega money into their clubs to break into European elite and try to win trophies, encouraging a stronger, more competitive Premier League. Smaller clubs should be allowed to grow. Salford were a nothing club ten years ago and now under new ambitious owners, they are growing both on and off the pitch and will continue to do so. Those who are against smaller clubs spending more towards success are jealous, it's as simple as that. No one on here was complaining when "Uncle Stuart" dipped into his pockets for Akwasi and Johnston.
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Post by Harry Lime on May 21, 2020 8:06:24 GMT
Whatever salary cap is introduced in the National League the biggest factor will be what happens in L1 and L2. Dale Vince is suggesting £3.5 million and £2 million so I guess there will be a wide range of differing opinions. A L2 clubs gets about 900k in central funding according to vitalfootball.co.uk whilst a National League club get 58k. If L2 bring in a £1.25 million salary cap as per the Hartlepool Mail piece then the difference would be 450k in L2 between the amount of central funding and the cap. Working on the same calculation for the National League the difference would be 690k if Mr Haythornthwaite gets his way. That would appear to make no sense. However if Dale Vince is nearer the mark then it might stack up as a coherent argument. I would think that the National League will wait to see what the EFL do with the salary cap particularly as they have done that in regard to promotion and the play offs. There will then be a knock on effect. I think the salary cap for the NLN could end up being between 250k and 300k but it all depends on what the EFL do imo. This figure if brought in would be very doable for us That comment is probably very pertinent to how clubs will vote. Everyone will vote for an amount that puts them at the top of that pile. Clubs will all vote for what suits them. Not for the game as a whole. There would be no Salford or Forest Green with FFP. Whatever we might think about them, they have been good owners for there respective clubs. Unfortunately, there are many more reckless, dangerous or crooked owners around. There needs to be a way of ensuring that any money is invested into the club, in a responsible manner, and is not 'a loan. Rather like SM paying the Johnston transfer fee, and the club paying his ongoing wages. When the backer decides he's off, the club can carry on as before. It would also likely end longer contracts at the lower end. Clubs being relegated would be in a difficult position, with players on higher contracts. Meaning less left for the rest of the squad. Relegation clauses would be more common.
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Post by Harry Lime on May 21, 2020 8:15:05 GMT
Smaller clubs spending more towards success, beyond their income, is why football is in this position, no? Forest Green? Fleetwood? Salford? I'm essentially going for a FFP system over a wage cap. FFP is a terrible system that should be scrapped and thankfully looks to be headed that way if Arsene Wenger has anything to do with it. It encourages a closed shop mentality and prevents ambitious clubs from spending money to try and break into the established hierarchy. Take the Premier League for example. Everton, Wolves and soon to be Newcastle are three clubs off the top of my head with incredibly wealthy and ambitious owners who want to do what Man City and Chelsea did back in the noughties and Blackburn before them, invest mega money into their clubs to break into European elite and try to win trophies, encouraging a stronger, more competitive Premier League. Smaller clubs should be allowed to grow. Salford were a nothing club ten years ago and now under new ambitious owners, they are growing both on and off the pitch and will continue to do so. Those who are against smaller clubs spending more towards success are jealous, it's as simple as that. No one on here was complaining when "Uncle Stuart" dipped into his pockets for Akwasi and Johnston. Other sports, such as Rugby League and Union, and American Football actively stop this from happening. They want to create a competitive league, rather than one where the richest owner gets the spoils. You can't argue that Man United getting 75000 each home game, should have more money to spend than the others. It's more difficult to argue that Man City should simply because they're owned by someone with more money. You could end up with a less competitive league as Qatar and Saudi Arabia ruin it for everyone else.
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