|
B Team
Aug 6, 2020 8:33:38 GMT
via mobile
Post by agl on Aug 6, 2020 8:33:38 GMT
Just throwing this out for discussion...I see that Southampton are shaking up their youth system. As I understand it, they are planning to run a B team which will effectively replace their highly successful academy. The idea is to give young players a competitive pathway to the first team and it mirrors the European model of running B teams in lower leagues. Would something like this work for us, perhaps by adding an extra layer to the existing academy and allowing us to give youth players a better chance of progressing and also bring in promising older youngsters from other clubs? I appreciate that any criticism of the academy is tantamount to treason for some on here but the way forward for us surely has to be bringing through young players in greater numbers than currently. Maybe our model is doing just fine and it's unrealistic to expect better but surely no harm in trying to think outside the box. Whether we like it or not there appears to be an issue with players drifting away when they reach age 18,19.
|
|
|
B Team
Aug 6, 2020 9:00:25 GMT
Post by Neil Hunt Nonsense Potter on Aug 6, 2020 9:00:25 GMT
I don't think anyone will get upset with that, I think its a very valid point. For me bridging the 18-21 age gap is the biggest challenge that any academy faces. Players at 18/19 are seldom ready for mens football, especially at the physical level we are. There are obvious exceptions but managers are loath to take a chance and play them ahead of more developed, more experienced players. Loan periods are fine, but the only time that youth team players are likely to get extended game time at Chester is injury cover but even a good run then. Matty Thompson was excellent last season up to his injury at Hereford, but on his return he was not going to get in ahead of Roberts or Taylor.
The need for a bridge to the senior squad is essential if we are to develop any more than what we currently are. The main problem is cost. Pitches (training and matches), coaches, officials and travel are expensive, but these would also be 18-21 year olds so would also require wages, expenses etc. That money just isn't there at Chester. Its obvious that people are looking at Brentfords model, the quality of player it produces and the income this generates/has generated has been superb, but it is a very difficult thing to get right. Also, having "one of your own" doing well is a big thing for supporters, and these lads seem to have a connection with a club they may have been at from the age of 7.
Southampton are one of Englands most productive academies and the costs of running a Cat 1 academy are massive but their change is more aimed at bringing their u23s under the direction of their head coach, mirroring European clubs. In other news, Arsenal are also making 55 people redundant. Maybe COVID has proved the pin that has if not burst footballs bubble, it is certainly causing a slow puncture. Strange days indeed.
|
|
|
B Team
Aug 6, 2020 11:26:52 GMT
Post by devablue on Aug 6, 2020 11:26:52 GMT
Yeah these 'B Teams' are good ideas as they do help bridge that age and quality gap between youth and mens football. It would never happen at our level though without completely disbanding the academy (for financial reasons). And since we are a community fan-owned club, disbanding the academy would be the worst thing we could do.
|
|
|
B Team
Aug 6, 2020 11:50:55 GMT
Post by agl on Aug 6, 2020 11:50:55 GMT
Yeah these 'B Teams' are good ideas as they do help bridge that age and quality gap between youth and mens football. It would never happen at our level though without completely disbanding the academy (for financial reasons). And since we are a community fan-owned club, disbanding the academy would be the worst thing we could do. Could we add an extra layer to the academy, without the cost being prohibitive? On another thread I was taken to task by someone connected with the academy, who pointed out that the academy has run at a profit (although this may be skewed by the Sam Hughes deal). I agree that disbanding the academy would be unthinkable, but is there any way we can build on its success by making it work better for us in terms of bringing more players through? More so than ever there has to be a focus on producing and finding young talent. Loaning players out (maybe to teams who play a totally different system) is one way, but it seems to be producing mixed results. These lads are left in a sort of limbo...too good for the academy, but not good enough/ or strong enough for the first team. I know some say they should be just thrown in and given a run but I don't think that's the answer unless you have someone like Sam Hughes who was physically strong for his age.
|
|
|
B Team
Aug 6, 2020 12:50:28 GMT
via mobile
agl likes this
Post by cfcyouthacademy on Aug 6, 2020 12:50:28 GMT
Just throwing this out for discussion...I see that Southampton are shaking up their youth system. As I understand it, they are planning to run a B team which will effectively replace their highly successful academy. The idea is to give young players a competitive pathway to the first team and it mirrors the European model of running B teams in lower leagues. Would something like this work for us, perhaps by adding an extra layer to the existing academy and allowing us to give youth players a better chance of progressing and also bring in promising older youngsters from other clubs? I appreciate that any criticism of the academy is tantamount to treason for some on here but the way forward for us surely has to be bringing through young players in greater numbers than currently. Maybe our model is doing just fine and it's unrealistic to expect better but surely no harm in trying to think outside the box. Whether we like it or not there appears to be an issue with players drifting away when they reach age 18,19. It’s a really fair comment regarding the idea of an additional layer to the Academy and it’s something that had been done in some form. Unfortunately, there isn’t a suitable level of organised football for U21s in non league at present. The standard of the North West U21 Division is significantly weaker than the National League U19s. Equally, the costs described in another post regarding players wages, additional facilities etc. Mean that it isn’t a starter at present. The model we have been looking at is to have these boys retained with the first team training model and provide a games programme through a mix of “bounce” games organised periodically, the Cheshire Senior Cup but to have these boys on loan to experience senior football. This has had mixed success but is probably the most realistic and effective way of addressing the 18-First Team issue at present. On a wider topic, the issue of what is success needs addressing. The Academy have probably had a decade worth of success in a short space of time. To have the three player sales amongst other lesser breakthroughs and the success at Youth team level In a 36 month period has unfortunately created a really difficult situation for all the staff. There is now a perception in various quarters that the Academy should produce a player that becomes a first team regular every season or one that is sold on for six figures. That isn’t realistic, particularly on the resource thats offered. There are other successes involved in producing players that become squad and fringe players and the cost savings this provides. However, the pressure to keep mirroring the success in all areas is really felt by the Academy staff I can assure you of that. It’s tough to need to keep beating last year’s efforts and to try and unearth the next player to sell without an increase in resource.
|
|
|
B Team
Aug 6, 2020 13:17:21 GMT
Post by agl on Aug 6, 2020 13:17:21 GMT
I think we are all appreciative of the great work that's being done and I'm under no illusion that it's easy. I guess added scrutiny will go with the territory amid all the current uncertainty and financial turmoil. Always good to get the views of those at the sharp end. I do think, however, that the academy must be measured to a large extent on how well it feeds the first team.
|
|
|
B Team
Aug 6, 2020 13:37:39 GMT
Post by dc2cfc on Aug 6, 2020 13:37:39 GMT
The B team option is a good idea, but it comes down to cost and where they currently fit in with regular fixtures.
Another option could be developing a partnership with 1 or 2 clubs. So throughout the season they can loan our players on short periods on a rotation basis so every player has a short loan spell with that club. In return for regular game time we could arrange a pre-season friendly at their place for our first team when crowds are fully allowed to return in years to come. That then provides them with some funds each season.
Or also arranging regular friendly fixtures for the youth side against senior teams when possible to give them more experiance.
|
|
|
B Team
Aug 6, 2020 16:01:36 GMT
via mobile
Post by cfcyouthacademy on Aug 6, 2020 16:01:36 GMT
I think we are all appreciative of the great work that's being done and I'm under no illusion that it's easy. I guess added scrutiny will go with the territory amid all the current uncertainty and financial turmoil. Always good to get the views of those at the sharp end. I do think, however, that the academy must be measured to a large extent on how well it feeds the first team. Absolutely, but the idea that the Academy will produce a player that plays for the first team and gets sold every year is unachievable at any level.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
B Team
Aug 6, 2020 16:31:19 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 16:31:19 GMT
I think we are all appreciative of the great work that's being done and I'm under no illusion that it's easy. I guess added scrutiny will go with the territory amid all the current uncertainty and financial turmoil. Always good to get the views of those at the sharp end. I do think, however, that the academy must be measured to a large extent on how well it feeds the first team. Absolutely, but the idea that the Academy will produce a player that plays for the first team and gets sold every year is unachievable at any level. I wholeheartedly agree. What then, do we quantify success by?
|
|
|
B Team
Aug 6, 2020 21:05:18 GMT
via mobile
Post by cfcyouthacademy on Aug 6, 2020 21:05:18 GMT
Absolutely, but the idea that the Academy will produce a player that plays for the first team and gets sold every year is unachievable at any level. I wholeheartedly agree. What then, do we quantify success by? I totally agree that the measure of the Academy is success in producing players for the first team and in potential sales but I don’t think anyone is able to really place a value on a first team appearance from an Academy graduate. Not every player that breaks through is going to be a Hughes or Crawford nor a Waters, but their presence and their appearances does hold some financial value. Realistically, the Academy should look to sell a player or have him as a first team regular every 3/4 years.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
B Team
Aug 6, 2020 21:15:18 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Aug 6, 2020 21:15:18 GMT
I wholeheartedly agree. What then, do we quantify success by? I totally agree that the measure of the Academy is success in producing players for the first team and in potential sales but I don’t think anyone is able to really place a value on a first team appearance from an Academy graduate. Not every player that breaks through is going to be a Hughes or Crawford nor a Waters, but their presence and their appearances does hold some financial value. Realistically, the Academy should look to sell a player or have him as a first team regular every 3/4 years. Thank you for the response. I guess it’s us, as supporters that need to change what we deem as success.
|
|
|
Post by midfieldgeneral on Aug 6, 2020 22:30:46 GMT
The academy needs to utilise and develop the links, with local lower level clubs and monitor their progress. We need to utilise the links with Callum at Runcorn Linnets and get the youngsters out on loan. The only way to develop the youngsters and bridge the gap between the youth team and senior level, is to get them to experience semi pro football and to play on a regular basis.
|
|
|
B Team
Aug 7, 2020 13:57:10 GMT
Post by hughdemann on Aug 7, 2020 13:57:10 GMT
It does seem frustrating that our Academy are comparatively a lot more successful than our first team, so it is disappointing that we let a lot of these lads go when we cannot accommodate them in our first team squad. Definitely need something to bridge the gap.
|
|
|
B Team
Aug 12, 2020 17:11:49 GMT
via mobile
Post by midfieldgeneral on Aug 12, 2020 17:11:49 GMT
To be honest both Utd and Liverpool have got an excellent crop of youngsters coming through and the class of 92 saved Utd well over 100 million in transfer fees. Although, both can probably obtain the best young players around. It just shows the benefits of having a well organised and well funded academy.. Perhaps the shock of Covid will force clubs to look more to their academies ?
|
|
|
B Team
Aug 12, 2020 21:47:42 GMT
Post by Harry Lime on Aug 12, 2020 21:47:42 GMT
To be honest both Utd and Liverpool have got an excellent crop of youngsters coming through and the class of 92 saved Utd well over 100 million in transfer fees. Although, both can probably obtain the best young players around. It just shows the benefits of having a well organised and well funded academy.. Perhaps the shock of Covid will force clubs to look more to their academies ? If the average cost of a new player is £50m, it's probably worth having a well funded academy. Problem is, it probably costs them £10m a year to run it all. Don't think it's at all realistic to look at them. Both clubs can attract almost every player they want to sign, through money and history. We can't really look at Wrexham either, as they're a full academy. Considering our status, finances and small team of coaches, we've over achieved considerably. Most clubs at our level don't bother anymore. Which shows how tough it is to bring through the right type of player. By that I mean a physically strong player with enough pace and quality. They're the ones the bigger clubs keep. Unfortunately the British game is still based too much on physicality. It makes up for a lack of quality. Look at the average League 1, League 2 and NL NLN and NLS sides. Very few youngsters. Very few players under 5'10" not built like fridges.
|
|
|
Post by prodigal on Aug 12, 2020 23:06:36 GMT
The achievements of our academy over the last 10 years tick all the boxes of serving our Club, City and Community and collectively are up there with our 3 title wins in terms of what we have achieved as a club since our reformation.
Hopefully Calum being at Runcorn will open the way for more of our young players to get more competitive senior football, as long as the arrangement is a 'win' situation for Runcorn too, we will also have an eye on the better players in the division amongst their opposition and other clubs may also give our youth a chance in these difficult financial times.
Absolutely agree, that it is not just transfer fees and the contributions to the first team of players like Waters that benefit the club but also every time a youth player has played minutes for us or has got on a bus to go and sit on the bench because we've had no-one else fit enough to do it.
|
|