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Post by classycas on Apr 15, 2021 17:25:18 GMT
With April 15 being the anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster, it gives me a chance to recall a rather miserable day at Leeds Road, Huddersfield watching Chester City lose 3-1 to The Terriers in a Third Division (today’s League Two) encounter that put paid to our slim hopes of promotion. For anyone interested, Robbie Painter got the Blues’ consolation goal.
Of the clubs also in Division Three during the 1988/89 campaign, only Bury are in a worse league position than Chester.
Wolves, Fulham (who we hammered 7-0 at Sealand Road just 10 days earlier) and Sheffield United are in the top flight, although I acknowledge the latter two clubs are likely to be playing Championship football next season, while Aldershot, Chesterfield and Notts County are in English football’s fifth tier.
What’s the point of this post? The current fan ownership model, and in particular the strict no-debt policy, will see Chester FC’s highest aspiration being escaping relegation from the National League Premier.
If Deva Chatters are happy with this, then you’re entitled to your views. But the only way Chester FC can ever hope of gaining EFL status — and who is opposed to that? — is by investing in the men’s first team.
That investment can come through…
A) Increasing the cost of CFU membership to between £100 and £200 per season and maintaining the number of CFU members at around 1000.
B) Encouraging investment in the club in return for a percentage of Chester FC ownership.
C) The CFU changing its constitution and agreeing to a maximum level of six-figure debt.
There are pros and cons to each of these three options, and I’m sure those responding to this post will be quick to explore them in detail.
But as interviews with former goalkeeper Richard Whiteside (https://bit.ly/2QwLO5K) and Daryl Clare (https://bit.ly/3aeWIE6) that have appeared on the official club website indicate, Chester FC has previously only achieved on-field success by overspending on players.
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Apr 15, 2021 17:47:13 GMT
Those first few words - what a weird way (using the deaths of football fans) to begin another anti-fan ownership diatribe because there’s no football to talk about.
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Post by classycas on Apr 15, 2021 18:09:07 GMT
I am very much in favour of the principle of fan ownership, but such a model is unable to finance any football club with ambitions of on-field success.
If Man U, Man C, Liverpool or Chelsea based their financial fortunes on charging an estimated 100,000 fan owners £12 a season, they would just about be able to afford Erling Haaland’s hair gel.
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Apr 15, 2021 18:19:37 GMT
I am very much in favour of the principle of fan ownership, but such a model is unable to finance any football club with ambitions of on-field success. If Man U, Man C, Liverpool or Chelsea based their financial fortunes on charging an estimated 100,000 fan owners £12 a season, they would just about be able to afford Erling Haaland’s hair gel. Read back what you’ve just posted. You’re comparing us with four of biggest clubs in the Europe! Poor WUM. |
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Post by classycas on Apr 15, 2021 18:26:08 GMT
I am in no way comparing Chester FC to any member of the Premier League, merely pointing out that at every level of the professional and semi-pro game, fan ownership is not financially sustainable.
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Post by Lobster on Apr 15, 2021 19:07:07 GMT
I too thought it was a bit odd to open with what sounded like it was going to be a Hillsborough tribute, then go on to make a point about our ownership model. But your question is reasonable enough so let's answer it.
A) I'm against this idea. No other fan-owned club is doing anything like this and I think people would just stop joining. I think AFC Wimbledon at £25 a year is the most I've seen, and they're three leagues above us and in London. We can see that lack of bodies is as much a challenge to us as lack of funds, so I would say a high number of members is of more value than a few extra pounds. For example, 1,000 fans paying £25 a year is a little more money than 2,000 at £12 a year, but I would choose the latter every time. However, I wouldn't be against some sort of scaled model where basic membership is £12 but higher tiers are available, perhaps with certain perks.
B) I'm not keen on the idea but anyone is welcome to approach us with this sort of offer and then it would rightly go to a vote. Only one person has done this so far and he could even put forward his plans.
C) Not for me. Also, is "six figures" £100,000 or £999,999? There's a bit difference. You can say overspending is the only way we've ever had success but it's also only ever ended in misery.
I just think stick at it. If you want investment, embrace what we have now and the club becomes more investable. This season was a big positive I think. I think we might well have gone up this year, and I don't see any reason why we can't have a good crack at the league above, just because we didn't what Jon McCarthy was here. It isn't really a league to be feared.
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Apr 15, 2021 19:26:09 GMT
We finished in the top half of the National Prem with a second round FA Cup run under fan ownership.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 15, 2021 20:52:55 GMT
I too thought it was a bit odd to open with what sounded like it was going to be a Hillsborough tribute, then go on to make a point about our ownership model. But your question is reasonable enough so let's answer it. A) I'm against this idea. No other fan-owned club is doing anything like this and I think people would just stop joining. I think AFC Wimbledon at £25 a year is the most I've seen, and they're three leagues above us and in London. We can see that lack of bodies is as much a challenge to us as lack of funds, so I would say a high number of members is of more value than a few extra pounds. For example, 1,000 fans paying £25 a year is a little more money than 2,000 at £12 a year, but I would choose the latter every time. However, I wouldn't be against some sort of scaled model where basic membership is £12 but higher tiers are available, perhaps with certain perks. B) I'm not keen on the idea but anyone is welcome to approach us with this sort of offer and then it would rightly go to a vote. Only one person has done this so far and he could even put forward his plans. C) Not for me. Also, is "six figures" £100,000 or £999,999? There's a bit difference. You can say overspending is the only way we've ever had success but it's also only ever ended in misery. I just think stick at it. If you want investment, embrace what we have now and the club becomes more investable. This season was a big positive I think. I think we might well have gone up this year, and I don't see any reason why we can't have a good crack at the league above, just because we didn't what Jon McCarthy was here. It isn't really a league to be feared. i think that £12.oo a year is way too cheap.£1 per week would still be cheap and nobody would miss that.for some reason we have a lot of supporters that don't want to pay anything .I've never understood why |
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Post by agl on Apr 15, 2021 21:22:32 GMT
I too thought it was a bit odd to open with what sounded like it was going to be a Hillsborough tribute, then go on to make a point about our ownership model. But your question is reasonable enough so let's answer it. A) I'm against this idea. No other fan-owned club is doing anything like this and I think people would just stop joining. I think AFC Wimbledon at £25 a year is the most I've seen, and they're three leagues above us and in London. We can see that lack of bodies is as much a challenge to us as lack of funds, so I would say a high number of members is of more value than a few extra pounds. For example, 1,000 fans paying £25 a year is a little more money than 2,000 at £12 a year, but I would choose the latter every time. However, I wouldn't be against some sort of scaled model where basic membership is £12 but higher tiers are available, perhaps with certain perks. B) I'm not keen on the idea but anyone is welcome to approach us with this sort of offer and then it would rightly go to a vote. Only one person has done this so far and he could even put forward his plans. C) Not for me. Also, is "six figures" £100,000 or £999,999? There's a bit difference. You can say overspending is the only way we've ever had success but it's also only ever ended in misery. I just think stick at it. If you want investment, embrace what we have now and the club becomes more investable. This season was a big positive I think. I think we might well have gone up this year, and I don't see any reason why we can't have a good crack at the league above, just because we didn't what Jon McCarthy was here. It isn't really a league to be feared. i think that £12.oo a year is way too cheap.£1 per week would still be cheap and nobody would miss that.for some reason we have a lot of supporters that don't want to pay anything .I've never understood why It's not that simple. If you have a large number of of people paying 12 quid, it provides a starting point. Then you try to encourage those that can afford more to do so. It's actually a very successful model, given that we raised 100k from our own fan base in a short period. |
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Post by cameandabel on Apr 16, 2021 8:41:55 GMT
And one year after that the club left Sealand Road and became homeless, with plenty more nightmares to follow under private ownership in the next two decades.
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Post by superman on Apr 16, 2021 8:42:12 GMT
We just need to be the best that we can under the current ownership model. If that means we can sustainably and competitively compete in the National League Prem. that will be a great achievement. Whether that meets the aspirations of the majority of fans is another matter. We have to be realistic with our expectations and understand and accept that there will be limitations without serious financial input beyond what the fan base alone can sustain. In order to compete successfully for FL status we probably need an income 5 to 10 times what it is now.
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Post by Wortleyblue on Apr 16, 2021 9:23:20 GMT
We just need to be the best that we can under the current ownership model. If that means we can sustainably and competitively compete in the National League Prem. that will be a great achievement. Whether that meets the aspirations of the majority of fans is another matter. We have to be realistic with our expectations and understand and accept that there will be limitations without serious financial input beyond what the fan base alone can sustain. In order to compete successfully for FL status we probably need an income 5 to 10 times what it is now. or a 3rd round cup tie at a full Old Trafford |
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Post by superman on Apr 16, 2021 9:26:22 GMT
We just need to be the best that we can under the current ownership model. If that means we can sustainably and competitively compete in the National League Prem. that will be a great achievement. Whether that meets the aspirations of the majority of fans is another matter. We have to be realistic with our expectations and understand and accept that there will be limitations without serious financial input beyond what the fan base alone can sustain. In order to compete successfully for FL status we probably need an income 5 to 10 times what it is now. or a 3rd round cup tie at a full Old Trafford So long as it was a replay after a televised draw at the Deva! |
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Apr 16, 2021 9:47:28 GMT
We just need to be the best that we can under the current ownership model. If that means we can sustainably and competitively compete in the National League Prem. that will be a great achievement. Whether that meets the aspirations of the majority of fans is another matter. We have to be realistic with our expectations and understand and accept that there will be limitations without serious financial input beyond what the fan base alone can sustain. In order to compete successfully for FL status we probably need an income 5 to 10 times what it is now. That’s why I pay no heed to the Facebook clan bemoaning fan ownership and saying we should’ve handed the club over to Uncle Stu after each defeat just because they remember us playing Stoke and Birmingham in league games. |
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Post by Lobster on Apr 16, 2021 10:36:32 GMT
We just need to be the best that we can under the current ownership model. If that means we can sustainably and competitively compete in the National League Prem. that will be a great achievement. Whether that meets the aspirations of the majority of fans is another matter. We have to be realistic with our expectations and understand and accept that there will be limitations without serious financial input beyond what the fan base alone can sustain. In order to compete successfully for FL status we probably need an income 5 to 10 times what it is now. That’s why I pay no heed to the Facebook clan bemoaning fan ownership and saying we should’ve handed the club over to Uncle Stu after each defeat just because they remember us playing Stoke and Birmingham in league games. People have got to accept that the leagues have changed. The FL was heavily weighted in favour of established clubs at the time and we finished bottom of it on more than one occasion - we wouldn't have lasted 69 years in the League under the current two up, two down system. Even the promise land of League 2 now contains names like Forest Green, Harrogate, Salford, Crawley, Stevenage and Barrow, possibly to be joined by Sutton next season on an artificial pitch. Would you really rather be playing any of them than York, Hereford and Darlington? Or even Leamington and Curzon Ashton, for that matter? |
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Post by delamereal on Apr 16, 2021 14:25:49 GMT
I don't think £20 for yearly CFU membership is unreasonable to be honest or maybe £1 per week.
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Post by superman on Apr 16, 2021 15:24:45 GMT
Yearly membership is £12, but people can pay monthly by DD as much as they like or can afford. Easy to do. Enough flexibility in the system to suit all tastes. Attracting new or lapsed members becomes more difficult the higher the base rate gets. In reality the monies bought in through membership, whilst useful, are relatively small compared to build the budget type scheme which have a defined purpose.
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Post by everhopeful on Apr 16, 2021 18:30:36 GMT
Yearly membership is £12, but people can pay monthly by DD as much as they like or can afford. Easy to do. Enough flexibility in the system to suit all tastes. Attracting new or lapsed members becomes more difficult the higher the base rate gets. In reality the monies bought in through membership, whilst useful, are relatively small compared to build the budget type scheme which have a defined purpose. Exeter City aren't doing so bad for a fan-owned team. How much do they charge their fans at a minimum? |
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Apr 16, 2021 19:09:02 GMT
Yearly membership is £12, but people can pay monthly by DD as much as they like or can afford. Easy to do. Enough flexibility in the system to suit all tastes. Attracting new or lapsed members becomes more difficult the higher the base rate gets. In reality the monies bought in through membership, whilst useful, are relatively small compared to build the budget type scheme which have a defined purpose. Exeter City aren't doing so bad for a fan-owned team. How much do they charge their fans at a minimum? £24 a year one-off; or £4 per month standing order. |
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Post by superman on Apr 16, 2021 19:22:04 GMT
The Wikipedia entry for the Exeter City supporters trust makes very interesting reading. Not without trials and tribulations, but still makes an interesting comparator.
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Post by spartacus on Apr 16, 2021 20:00:55 GMT
One area in which we have consistantly shot ourselves in the foot is not having a good run in the FA Cup which if done every two or three years could transform our fortunes.
The other way is to land one or two big sell-on clause players. Didn't Shrewsburys rise start with selling Hart ?
When I look back 60 years to when I started supporting Chester so many of the clubs I used to think much smaller than us have gone on to prosper.
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Post by waggoner on Apr 17, 2021 8:15:18 GMT
i think that £12.oo a year is way too cheap.£1 per week would still be cheap and nobody would miss that.for some reason we have a lot of supporters that don't want to pay anything .I've never understood why It's not that simple. If you have a large number of of people paying 12 quid, it provides a starting point. Then you try to encourage those that can afford more to do so. It's actually a very successful model, given that we raised 100k from our own fan base in a short period. It is a very successful model but has massive limits to how far you can go with it. There are other clubs who have a similar model to us (similar not exactly). One huge difference between us and other fan owned clubs is support. Exeter, AFC Wimbledon and others have much larger crowds than us, this gives you a massive advantage going forward. For instance 5000 x £12 is a lot better than £1000 x £12. Put a Squad funder in place with 5000 fans and things are much easier than our situation. Our model holds back any real progress. We are a cooperative with the only real money coming in being our ST money and match day revenue. This comes with other limitations. There is only a certain type of player we can afford, only a certain size first team squad we can pay (and stay in the black, look what happened a couple of years back when we 'went for it'). We have to boost the squad by using youth players on the pitch and on the bench. This can develop them but young players are prone to more 'off matches' than good matches. And before taking on an owner some really need to think about how we would achieve things. Yes we have been much higher up the leagues under private ownership, but what happened when things are not going so well? the 'owner' runs out of cash and our gates plummet (let's be honest our fans are a fickle bunch). The only real way to go forwards is in majority fan ownership with some sort of private money coming in. A push to get fans through the gates. Maybe pepper the whole City and beyond with £1 childrens tickets (free if with an adult). Every school, youth org, scout hut play group should be targeted. Not ONCE but every single match. Kids eat a lot of food drink a lot of pop and are the future fans. We need to target every adult in the City for the life of me i cannot understand why the CFU who have over 1000 members don't issue say 5 child tickets per member for every league game (thats 5000 potential fans per game) it would only take 500 of them to pester their dad or mum to bring them to have a massive impact on our gates. |
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Post by doubleducker on Apr 17, 2021 9:24:18 GMT
It's not that simple. If you have a large number of of people paying 12 quid, it provides a starting point. Then you try to encourage those that can afford more to do so. It's actually a very successful model, given that we raised 100k from our own fan base in a short period. It is a very successful model but has massive limits to how far you can go with it. There are other clubs who have a similar model to us (similar not exactly). One huge difference between us and other fan owned clubs is support. Exeter, AFC Wimbledon and others have much larger crowds than us, this gives you a massive advantage going forward. For instance 5000 x £12 is a lot better than £1000 x £12. Put a Squad funder in place with 5000 fans and things are much easier than our situation. Our model holds back any real progress. We are a cooperative with the only real money coming in being our ST money and match day revenue. This comes with other limitations. There is only a certain type of player we can afford, only a certain size first team squad we can pay (and stay in the black, look what happened a couple of years back when we 'went for it'). We have to boost the squad by using youth players on the pitch and on the bench. This can develop them but young players are prone to more 'off matches' than good matches. And before taking on an owner some really need to think about how we would achieve things. Yes we have been much higher up the leagues under private ownership, but what happened when things are not going so well? the 'owner' runs out of cash and our gates plummet (let's be honest our fans are a fickle bunch). The only real way to go forwards is in majority fan ownership with some sort of private money coming in. A push to get fans through the gates. Maybe pepper the whole City and beyond with £1 childrens tickets (free if with an adult). Every school, youth org, scout hut play group should be targeted. Not ONCE but every single match. Kids eat a lot of food drink a lot of pop and are the future fans. We need to target every adult in the City for the life of me i cannot understand why the CFU who have over 1000 members don't issue say 5 child tickets per member for every league game (thats 5000 potential fans per game) it would only take 500 of them to pester their dad or mum to bring them to have a massive impact on our gates. Completely agree about getting more of the kids involved, I think most of us got hooked when we were young by someone else bringing us along for a few games. Don't mean to side track too much but I'd always thought it'd be a good idea to host an inter schools football tournament at the deva, give the scouts a look at all the local players then give them all free tickets as a lot of them are our target audience for people who have a better chance of becoming fans. A lot of our fans in the 14-20 age range go as groups with their mates from school. Also there's 10,000 uni students in the city, none of whom go to the games, on the right side of town to walk, maybe we should offer some sort of heavily discounted ticket with their chester uni ID to start getting them through the door, then make money on the booze. |
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Post by bluetartan on Apr 17, 2021 15:16:50 GMT
i think that £12.oo a year is way too cheap.£1 per week would still be cheap and nobody would miss that.for some reason we have a lot of supporters that don't want to pay anything .I've never understood why It's not that simple. If you have a large number of of people paying 12 quid, it provides a starting point. Then you try to encourage those that can afford more to do so. It's actually a very successful model, given that we raised 100k from our own fan base in a short period. £12 a year is ridiculous and has been said many times, with opposing arguments. People have stated that they are just happy to support our club and they already pay enough, I do have some sympathy with that argument , there are people on the breadline that genuinely would struggle to commit and do already attend games or buy season tickets or play the lotto etc. However it does not disguise the fact that £12 will never get us anywhere, we have just finished second I hear you scream, that maybe but just an honest look at the table shows many a team below would be points above us if they’d played out their games played advantage. we have accepted that we are NLN, if we went up the problems Would still be there, we could not compete and we’d be back in the NLN again. It costs a lot of money to run a club, we all know that, but I will never accept that this is our level, I don’t want to bankrupt us in a idiotic push for promotion to the EFL but our current model once again does and never will support a return to the EFL. Football is and should be about winning, achievement, effort, fight and not about treading water at a level way below where we could be. £12 should be the monthly payment, as to how you can achieve this I don’t know without creating a devise and tiered system. Outside investment is also required, however many here don’t agree but year after year we can see where we are without it. |
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Post by Ian H Block on Apr 17, 2021 15:33:37 GMT
It's not that simple. If you have a large number of of people paying 12 quid, it provides a starting point. Then you try to encourage those that can afford more to do so. It's actually a very successful model, given that we raised 100k from our own fan base in a short period. £12 a year is ridiculous and has been said many times, with opposing arguments. People have stated that they are just happy to support our club and they already pay enough, I do have some sympathy with that argument , there are people on the breadline that genuinely would struggle to commit and do already attend games or buy season tickets or play the lotto etc. However it does not disguise the fact that £12 will never get us anywhere, we have just finished second I hear you scream, that maybe but just an honest look at the table shows many a team below would be points above us if they’d played out their games played advantage. we have accepted that we are NLN, if we went up the problems Would still be there, we could not compete and we’d be back in the NLN again. It costs a lot of money to run a club, we all know that, but I will never accept that this is our level, I don’t want to bankrupt us in a idiotic push for promotion to the EFL but our current model once again does and never will support a return to the EFL. Football is and should be about winning, achievement, effort, fight and not about treading water at a level way below where we could be. £12 should be the monthly payment, as to how you can achieve this I don’t know without creating a devise and tiered system. Outside investment is also required, however many here don’t agree but year after year we can see where we are without it. £12 is the minimum, nothing stopping anybody putting in extra. |
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Post by weareblues on Apr 17, 2021 16:34:51 GMT
If we want to move forward we’ve got to put prices up for CFU membership. Only so far we can go with current way things are ran
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Post by Lobster on Apr 17, 2021 17:40:15 GMT
This "nobody would miss a pound a week" stuff is simply not true. I've certainly had times where I've had no money to my name, or have had to watch every penny during the week. Think about students as well, as people have mentioned. If you've never made a tenner stretch to at least a fortnight, I doubt you went to university!
Keep the minimum fee as low as possible, bearing in mind that this may encourage people to sign their other halves or other family members up. Or how about this - make the default membership £25, but offer an unemployed/low wage membership for £12? The same as what we have now in effect, but with wording to make you consider whether you could offer more.
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Post by jimgreen on Apr 17, 2021 22:15:46 GMT
It's not that simple. If you have a large number of of people paying 12 quid, it provides a starting point. Then you try to encourage those that can afford more to do so. It's actually a very successful model, given that we raised 100k from our own fan base in a short period. It is a very successful model but has massive limits to how far you can go with it. There are other clubs who have a similar model to us (similar not exactly). One huge difference between us and other fan owned clubs is support. Exeter, AFC Wimbledon and others have much larger crowds than us, this gives you a massive advantage going forward. For instance 5000 x £12 is a lot better than £1000 x £12. Put a Squad funder in place with 5000 fans and things are much easier than our situation. Our model holds back any real progress. We are a cooperative with the only real money coming in being our ST money and match day revenue. This comes with other limitations. There is only a certain type of player we can afford, only a certain size first team squad we can pay (and stay in the black, look what happened a couple of years back when we 'went for it'). We have to boost the squad by using youth players on the pitch and on the bench. This can develop them but young players are prone to more 'off matches' than good matches. And before taking on an owner some really need to think about how we would achieve things. Yes we have been much higher up the leagues under private ownership, but what happened when things are not going so well? the 'owner' runs out of cash and our gates plummet (let's be honest our fans are a fickle bunch). The only real way to go forwards is in majority fan ownership with some sort of private money coming in. A push to get fans through the gates. Maybe pepper the whole City and beyond with £1 childrens tickets (free if with an adult). Every school, youth org, scout hut play group should be targeted. Not ONCE but every single match. Kids eat a lot of food drink a lot of pop and are the future fans. We need to target every adult in the City for the life of me i cannot understand why the CFU who have over 1000 members don't issue say 5 child tickets per member for every league game (thats 5000 potential fans per game) it would only take 500 of them to pester their dad or mum to bring them to have a massive impact on our gates. Just on kids admission, this is something the Board has been right behind for the past 18 months and it is free now for U12s and £3 for U18s - season tickets are also free for U12s and £30 for U18s. The pricing is brilliant but we’ve clearly got to shout about it wider and louder. |
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