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Post by luke90 on May 7, 2021 9:48:48 GMT
It's pretty heartbreaking to see an inflatable Boris Johnson erected in a town like Hartlepool. A lot of these working-class Northern towns seem to have lost their edge. They used to stand up for themselves but they've become very subservient and don't seem to think they deserve better. Is nobody there going to burst that thing? I'm no fan of Starmer but it's worrying that two entirely different Labour leaders are seemingly failing to connect with voters and are only helping the most cruel and corrupt government I've ever known become more powerful. It's difficult to see how this can change. I do wonder if Corbyn's kinder form of politics might have been better received in the changed post-Covid environment but we'll never know. When people feel like their lives aren't getting any better though they will vote the other way. Might be a protest vote, or may just be that labour until Starmer are just unelectable. Or maybe as another poster has said it is down to them sending a remainer to a leave constituency! Something needs to change though, as I've said a few times, I voted tory last time, but wouldn't if an election was called this year. However, with no credible alternative, where do we go? Also, good to see Rio join in on the off topic board, hopefully he stays, and fair play to FoP for actually engaging him in a friendly debate, hopefully it can be kept that way and we get some more people on this side of DC!!! |
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Post by blaconboy on May 7, 2021 10:04:54 GMT
I think that the problem Labour have is that they elected another middle class "socialist" from the south of England. If they continue to do this, they will be out of power for years to come
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Post by Lobster on May 7, 2021 10:06:07 GMT
Yes, good to have Rio joining in. I'm not sure what I would have made of Brexit at his age. I've become more lefty as I've got older, which goes against the usual convention.
Treating him as an adult here, his comments do, in my opinion, sum up the cognitive dissonance you often see from Brexit proponents. He admits he doesn't have any examples of EU laws stifling us, but still maintains that being free of them is his reason for supporting it. It's as good an argument as I've heard anyone else come up with for Brexit, to be honest.
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Post by Lobster on May 7, 2021 10:08:50 GMT
I think that the problem Labour have is that they elected another middle class "socialist" from the south of England. If they continue to do this, they will be out of power for years to come This is what I've wondered before - do Labour need a left-wing Trump? Think Liam Gallagher, Jason Williamson, Charlotte Church - someone a bit rough around the edges who just says what they think, and what a lot of other people are thinking? Not really the way I want politics to go, but it could just work. |
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Post by Firestick Frank on May 7, 2021 10:46:14 GMT
Yes, good to have Rio joining in. I'm not sure what I would have made of Brexit at his age. I've become more lefty as I've got older, which goes against the usual convention. Treating him as an adult here, his comments do, in my opinion, sum up the cognitive dissonance you often see from Brexit proponents. He admits he doesn't have any examples of EU laws stifling us, but still maintains that being free of them is his reason for supporting it. It's as good an argument as I've heard anyone else come up with for Brexit, to be honest. Yes it’s fair play to see him admitting that he doesn’t have any specific examples as to why he is pro Brexit, seems to be the case for a significant number of Brexit voters really. |
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Post by Firestick Frank on May 7, 2021 12:04:06 GMT
Early indications across the U.K. would suggest the incumbent parties in each of the three different nations will be getting a lift from their respective handling of the pandemic. A pandemic “rally around the flag” effect but with three different flags.
This past year has shone a light on devolution (particularly in Wales) like never before. It was up to Plaid to try to turn that into a bounce for independence but it would appear Labour have held them off and even gained from them.
In England I would say the fall in support for the likes of UKIP and Reform have resulted in bigger numbers voting Tory (the Tories now essentially acting as an amalgamation of all of those far right parties).
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Post by cityboy5705 on May 7, 2021 12:08:32 GMT
After the trouncing in Hartlepool and I'm surprised at the majority it's clear now that labour only care about the south the last two leaders of the party have done little to appease the working class voter in the north someone like nandy who at least had the balls to stand up to starmer or a bit of a punt how about matherson one of the few decent MPs in power might be out of left field but take a punt as long as long bailey doesn't get it cos I'm afraid I fear another thrashing in 3 years
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Post by Firestick Frank on May 7, 2021 12:18:44 GMT
After the trouncing in Hartlepool and I'm surprised at the majority it's clear now that labour only care about the south the last two leaders of the party have done little to appease the working class voter in the north someone like nandy who at least had the balls to stand up to starmer or a bit of a punt how about matherson one of the few decent MPs in power might be out of left field but take a punt as long as long bailey doesn't get it cos I'm afraid I fear another thrashing in 3 years The previous Labour leader won Hartlepool twice. He was twice as popular there as Sir Wetwipe is, based on the number of votes. The Labour vote has steadily declined in Hartlepool in every election since 1997 except in 2017 when it rose to 53% (Corbyn’s first of his two General Elections; obviously 2019 was all about Brexit but still Labour held that seat by a 9% margin). The only thing Labour have communicated since 2020 is “we are different from Jeremy Corbyn”, no policies, no opposition... and look how that’s panning out. |
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Post by superman on May 7, 2021 12:41:57 GMT
Unfortunately Labour is internally divided, still at war with itself, and is showing no sign of reaching a consensus about what it wants to be. Historical working class family allegiances to the party are largely eroded. The party needs to stop clinging to outdated ideologies and develop policies, people and presentation that have wide appeal across the social spectrum. Is Starmer the man to bring this about? Unlikely in my opinion but he may yet surprise me and use the latest party failings to energise a proper modernisation.
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Post by Lobster on May 7, 2021 13:18:00 GMT
Unfortunately Labour is internally divided, still at war with itself, and is showing no sign of reaching a consensus about what it wants to be. Historical working class family allegiances to the party are largely eroded. The party needs to stop clinging to outdated ideologies and develop policies, people and presentation that have wide appeal across the social spectrum. Is Starmer the man to bring this about? Unlikely in my opinion but he may yet surprise me and use the latest party failings to energise a proper modernisation. The thing is I would say the Tories are divided too, but one side seems to be winning the battle and the support of a certain demographic. Labour aren't really doing that. It was kind of my hope that if a positive could come out of Covid, it might be that we become a nation with a bit more compassion and humility. No such luck, it would seem. |
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Post by midfieldgeneral on May 7, 2021 13:39:51 GMT
I think Labours problems go back to the financial crash of 2008 and before. Neglect of working class constituencies and the absolute lack of fight by allowing the Tories to blame Labour for the financial crisis and then blame the EU for the austerity that followed. There is a massive underclass out there that are easy picking for the Right Wing Nationalalists. Labour would have been better to full oppose leaving the EU and to create a radical coalition for when it turns to dust , even if it means losing the next election, because eventually the Tory/Red Wall coalition will , disintegrate due to its own internal contridictions. English Natioinalism is in the acendency, but that poses problems for the sustainability of the union, because the stronger the Tories are in England then the more it is likely to turn people, in Scotland abd to a lesser extent Wales towards the cause of independence
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Post by jedthehumanoid on May 7, 2021 15:18:56 GMT
Unfortunately Labour is internally divided, still at war with itself, and is showing no sign of reaching a consensus about what it wants to be. Historical working class family allegiances to the party are largely eroded. The party needs to stop clinging to outdated ideologies and develop policies, people and presentation that have wide appeal across the social spectrum. Is Starmer the man to bring this about? Unlikely in my opinion but he may yet surprise me and use the latest party failings to energise a proper modernisation. The thing is I would say the Tories are divided too, but one side seems to be winning the battle and the support of a certain demographic. Labour aren't really doing that. It was kind of my hope that if a positive could come out of Covid, it might be that we become a nation with a bit more compassion and humility. No such luck, it would seem. Both Labour supporters/members and the PLP seem unable to close the rifts and rally behind a single person. It's something that happens with the left wing of politics a lot - a need for the perfect candidate. Any small discretion is jumped on and causes a split. The Tories are good at getting behind imperfect leaders (and they've had more than a few) when it comes to the crunch. They can swallow their pride and vote for the party then reconvene afterwards. They also seem to do a lot more of their bickering behind closed doors. |
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Post by lincolnexile on May 7, 2021 15:35:24 GMT
Kier Starmer has said he’ll do whatever it takes to rebuild confidence in the party. I’m guessing that means he’ll be resigning then?
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Post by Firestick Frank on May 7, 2021 16:03:56 GMT
Doesn’t look like there’ll be a repeat of the 2019 GE swathe of red turning blue in North East Wales this time. Labour holding Delyn, Wrexham and Clwyd South (all three were stolen by the Tories in Westminster in 2019) - Wrexham especially will be galling as it was their top target seat and Johnson visited last week on the campaign trail. Labour also hold Alyn & Deeside (the only NEWales seat the Tories couldn’t take in 2019). Labour also increased their majority in Gower (another Tory target seat) from around 1,800 to 5,000.
Tories will be disappointed with their efforts in Wales. Plaid Cymru, too, will have hoped the light shone on devolved powers could’ve aided their campaign but it appears to have strengthened Drakeford and Labour’s hand.
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Post by Lobster on May 7, 2021 17:55:56 GMT
In the Liverpool City Mayor elections (not the same as the City Region Mayor which the Wirral and Halton vote on), the Conservative candidate received 4.1% of the vote.
They've also become the first major UK city to elect a black female as mayor, narrowly defeating a Chinese independent candidate.
Say what you want about Scousers, but come the revolution they will be the ones to start it.
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Post by Ian H Block on May 7, 2021 18:26:50 GMT
I’m most interested in seeing how Andy Burnham does in Greater Manchester. A Labour politician who actually stood up to the Tories in recent times, I hope his constituents remembered that when voting.
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Post by Ian H Block on May 7, 2021 20:05:05 GMT
Labour did well in Preston, defending every Council seat with some ease. A progressive, socialist Authority that is clearly very popular with the electorate and should be held up as an example to others.
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Post by Firestick Frank on May 7, 2021 20:21:16 GMT
Similarly in Salford, Mayor Paul Dennett looks set to retain his position with a massive majority - very left-wing socialist who has operated a kind of municipal socialism in Salford during his tenure.
In Wales Mark Drakeford is an out and proud socialist (although I’d like him to be more adventurous and radical with his policies here, as Plaid offered), and Welsh Labour are on course to defy all the polls that had them down to lose seats and end up in a coalition. In fact, they’re so close to an overall majority in the Senedd for the first time since its inception in 1999 (may fall one seat short but still one more than 2016). They’ve cemented their position in charge.
Just goes to show that the new direction that New Labour II is taking will not work. Of course look at Hartlepool.
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Post by Churton Blue on May 8, 2021 8:58:27 GMT
Hartlepool did elect a man dressed in a monkey suit as Mayor so maybe it is not the best place to base big political judgements on. In 2019 Labour clung on in the Parliamentary elections but were battered in the Local Elections. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Hartlepool_Borough_Council_election. Labour do have a long standing problem in places like Hartlepool. Recently they do appear to like people with strong local connections who they feel put Hartlepool or their particular set of values first. They did vote 70% leave so the Tory got away with not being local. I thought the choice of Labour candidate was exceptionally poor and sealed the deal for the Tories. Independent candidate did really well as they had excellent local connections. |
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Post by Churton Blue on May 8, 2021 11:47:00 GMT
To be fair, there’s nothing to say that the current Covid vaccinations can work against new, virulent strains of the virus. We won’t know until we come across them. It’s galling to think that other countries have achieved a Zero Covid strategy yet we, an ISLAND(!), have one of the worst death rates in the world. As I said, we all want some level of normality but I think it’s important to approach the virus and whatever strains it may bring sensibly and act quickly to deal with it in the future. What were your examples of the U.K. not being able to operate on its own terms as a member state of the European Union? Each state has a veto. You’re not wrong on your first point, although over the past few months I’ve heard of tonnes of new strains propping up, but thankfully nothing has since came out of them, while the vaccines have been effective for pretty much all of them anyway, so hopefully if any future variants hit us the vaccine will continue to work against them. The main reason why we have one of the worst death tolls despite being surrounded by water is simply this government’s constant incompetence by keeping the borders open pretty much throughout, which has made us become a gateway to new variants and mass cases arriving. To be honest I don’t have any specific examples regarding your second point as I wasn’t really into politics much before Brexit, so my memory isn’t that great on thinking of in-depth examples about how we operated before that, but my main point is just that I’m glad we now have more freedom as a country in the sense that we are not governed under the EU, so we’re able to be more flexible in what we do via our own trade policies etc. Of course we had our own individual duties while we were in the EU amongst every other country, but I just like the idea of us being much more independent in what we do, such as spending money we would’ve otherwise spunked on EU membership fees into investing on issues that matter most to UK people (like wallpaper and the landlord of Matt Hancock’s local pub, because that really matters to the public), and trade, etc. Historically the Labour Party was always opposed to UK membership of the EEC (EU) and the Left of the Labour Party were the driving force behind this opposition. The Tories were always keen on joining and it was part of their manifesto in the 1970 GE. When Parliament voted to join in 1971 the Labour Party had a three line whip to vote against. Under Michael Foot the Labour manifesto of 1983 was in favour of withdrawl, again driven by the Left. Rio, there is nothing inconsistent about being Left of centre and not believing in the EU. Both Conservative and Labour Party have completely changed their minds on the issue which could suggest fundamentally it is not really a left vs right issue. |
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Post by Firestick Frank on May 8, 2021 13:57:08 GMT
Going back to the Hartlepool thing, one bloke interviewed live on the British Broadcaster for the Conservatives (BBC) News said he voted Tory for the first time because Labour haven’t been building hospitals... ermmm the Tories have been in power for over a decade.
Christ Almighty 🤦♂️
Even worse - the reporter didn’t bother to challenge him on that.
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Post by Lobster on May 8, 2021 15:47:38 GMT
Going back to the Hartlepool thing, one bloke interviewed live on the British Broadcaster for the Conservatives (BBC) News said he voted Tory for the first time because Labour haven’t been building hospitals... ermmm the Tories have been in power for over a decade. Christ Almighty 🤦♂️ Even worse - the reporter didn’t bother to challenge him on that. I'm guessing he meant Labour haven't been building hospitals in Hartlepool, but yes, it's a misunderstanding of whose responsibility that is and where the funding for it comes from. And yes, the BBC should challenge people when it's as obvious as that. |
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Post by Lobster on May 8, 2021 15:49:55 GMT
I’m most interested in seeing how Andy Burnham does in Greater Manchester. A Labour politician who actually stood up to the Tories in recent times, I hope his constituents remembered that when voting. Burnham wins with 67.3% of the vote. Pretty resounding, that. |
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Post by midfieldgeneral on May 8, 2021 15:51:29 GMT
You’re not wrong on your first point, although over the past few months I’ve heard of tonnes of new strains propping up, but thankfully nothing has since came out of them, while the vaccines have been effective for pretty much all of them anyway, so hopefully if any future variants hit us the vaccine will continue to work against them. The main reason why we have one of the worst death tolls despite being surrounded by water is simply this government’s constant incompetence by keeping the borders open pretty much throughout, which has made us become a gateway to new variants and mass cases arriving. To be honest I don’t have any specific examples regarding your second point as I wasn’t really into politics much before Brexit, so my memory isn’t that great on thinking of in-depth examples about how we operated before that, but my main point is just that I’m glad we now have more freedom as a country in the sense that we are not governed under the EU, so we’re able to be more flexible in what we do via our own trade policies etc. Of course we had our own individual duties while we were in the EU amongst every other country, but I just like the idea of us being much more independent in what we do, such as spending money we would’ve otherwise spunked on EU membership fees into investing on issues that matter most to UK people (like wallpaper and the landlord of Matt Hancock’s local pub, because that really matters to the public), and trade, etc. Historically the Labour Party was always opposed to UK membership of the EEC (EU) and the Left of the Labour Party were the driving force behind this opposition. The Tories were always keen on joining and it was part of their manifesto in the 1970 GE. When Parliament voted to join in 1971 the Labour Party had a three line whip to vote against. Under Michael Foot the Labour manifesto of 1983 was in favour of withdrawl, again driven by the Left. Rio, there is nothing inconsistent about being Left of centre and not believing in the EU. Both Conservative and Labour Party have completely changed their minds on the issue which could suggest fundamentally it is not really a left vs right issue. Actually, during the Thatcher era, they was something of a change, in the Left's view of the EU Given that Thatcher destroyed much of the power of the unions. Many started to look to Europe for employment and health and safety protection.Now that has now gone expect an attack on workers rights, holiday pay and benefits. Never trust a Tory. |
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Post by midfieldgeneral on May 8, 2021 17:56:52 GMT
Pro Independence parties win a majority, in Scotland. Bye Bye UK. Lol
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Post by Rio Doherty on May 9, 2021 0:36:17 GMT
You’re not wrong on your first point, although over the past few months I’ve heard of tonnes of new strains propping up, but thankfully nothing has since came out of them, while the vaccines have been effective for pretty much all of them anyway, so hopefully if any future variants hit us the vaccine will continue to work against them. The main reason why we have one of the worst death tolls despite being surrounded by water is simply this government’s constant incompetence by keeping the borders open pretty much throughout, which has made us become a gateway to new variants and mass cases arriving. To be honest I don’t have any specific examples regarding your second point as I wasn’t really into politics much before Brexit, so my memory isn’t that great on thinking of in-depth examples about how we operated before that, but my main point is just that I’m glad we now have more freedom as a country in the sense that we are not governed under the EU, so we’re able to be more flexible in what we do via our own trade policies etc. Of course we had our own individual duties while we were in the EU amongst every other country, but I just like the idea of us being much more independent in what we do, such as spending money we would’ve otherwise spunked on EU membership fees into investing on issues that matter most to UK people (like wallpaper and the landlord of Matt Hancock’s local pub, because that really matters to the public), and trade, etc. Historically the Labour Party was always opposed to UK membership of the EEC (EU) and the Left of the Labour Party were the driving force behind this opposition. The Tories were always keen on joining and it was part of their manifesto in the 1970 GE. When Parliament voted to join in 1971 the Labour Party had a three line whip to vote against. Under Michael Foot the Labour manifesto of 1983 was in favour of withdrawl, again driven by the Left. Rio, there is nothing inconsistent about being Left of centre and not believing in the EU. Both Conservative and Labour Party have completely changed their minds on the issue which could suggest fundamentally it is not really a left vs right issue. Thank you for the information Mike 👍. |
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Post by cityboy5705 on May 10, 2021 6:19:34 GMT
Pro Independence parties win a majority, in Scotland. Bye Bye UK. Lol didn't actually get a majority though |
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Post by cityboy5705 on May 10, 2021 6:21:28 GMT
Council thrashing in England a very poor reshuffle and a leadership challenge not the week starmer wanted
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Post by Lobster on May 10, 2021 6:47:56 GMT
Pro Independence parties win a majority, in Scotland. Bye Bye UK. Lol didn't actually get a majority though The SNP missed out by one, but the Greens won eight and are also pro-independence. |
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Post by Firestick Frank on May 10, 2021 8:36:57 GMT
Interesting that the majority of regions/constituencies in the U.K. Labour did well in had definitive socialists championing the polices of 2017 and 2019. Wales, Merseyside, Manchester, Preston...
Peter Mandleson’s reshuffles this weekend at a national level are an affront to Labour’s core values. They’ve just appointed a Shadow Chancellor whose stance is they should be “tougher than the Tories” on poor, sick and disabled benefits claimants. Results last week have proven that flag-shagging and having pints but with no policies won’t work, but nor will lurching further to the right. We knew that that’s the course they’d take though.
Clearly, the people who voted Labour last week want the real and radical change that the 2017 and 2019 manifestos offered, as demonstrated by the successes in the regions they were successful.
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