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Post by Lobster on Jun 23, 2017 16:28:31 GMT
It's a year ago today since the EU referendum vote was held. What do people think about it now. Are Remainers still Remainers? Are Leavers still Leavers?
I'm a Remainer who is coming round to the idea that leaving might not be so bad in the end. I still think we have little to gain from leaving the EU, and I hate the way bigots felt vindicated and non-British international felt threatened by the result, but the biggest positive that's come out of Brexit for me is how much damage it's done to the Tories. If we'd voted Remain, we'd still be stuck with Cameron and Osborne and their confidence in front of the cameras. Instead, the Tories are left with an indecisive autocue reader as leader, have lost their majority and a party widely seen as a bit of a lefty protest has emerged as a serious opposition.
Goes to show that maybe sometimes you need to think two or three moves ahead when you vote. Saying that, if there were a second referendum I would probably vote Remain again.
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Post by Hannibal on Jun 23, 2017 17:17:44 GMT
I voted Remain and would do so again in the unlikely event of a second referendum. We were told that the £350 million we saved in contributions would be diverted to the NHS, but that was clearly bollocks. The bigots will have egg on their faces because part of the Brexit arrangements will possibly be free movement of EU nationals. We do, however, have the possibility that country might be ruled by velcro Boris, a very scary prospect.
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Post by Firestick Frank on Jun 23, 2017 18:53:59 GMT
Our embarrassment of a PM has delayed Brexit for an entire year and the people aim their ire at the leader of the opposition! Beggars belief.
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Post by Deva Chanter on Jun 23, 2017 19:48:26 GMT
I voted Leave and would vote Leave again tomorrow.
I thought the EU referendum offered a great opportunity for people in this country to vote against those who govern with elitist arrogance - taking people for granted in the belief that their ideas are superior and couldn't possibly be challenged by ordinary people at the ballot box. The EU, as did the Tories, arrogantly assumed that it was a foregone conclusion that the UK would vote Remain and therefore gave Cameron a terrible deal when he went for his doomed negotiation. They acted with the same levels of hubristic blindness when negotiating with Greece, with far worse consequences for the people there.
The Conservative party in this country represent exactly the same arrogant elite as do the bureaucrats in Brussels - the calling of the referendum in the first place by Cameron, followed by Theresa May's calling of a snap election, perfectly illustrates the staggering disdain they have for ordinary people - believing that they have a total monopoly on political wisdom.
I have little doubt that the EU will continue to act in the same way in giving us a bad deal on Brexit - they will conceitedly believe that nobody could possibly be as stupid as the British and will therefore take great pleasure in attempting to punitively dismantle the will of people across Europe by offering the UK as their sacrificial lamb as a show of strength for their brothers in arms - namely Merkel and the new European golden boy, Emmanuel Macron.
One day the EU and the Tories will both have an epiphany of sorts - but it will be long after they've been booted out of power.
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Post by bluesince72 on Jun 25, 2017 15:28:33 GMT
I voted leave and would also do the same again. My motivation was anti neoliberal, anti corporate/bankster elite as espoused by the Lexit campaign. However, I have never supported a hard/clean Brexit. To me that is throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
Labour's ambiguous stance on the type of Brexit Britain should argue for has been brilliant politics, but they will eventually have to show their hand. When they do I hope they make a stand for the softest Brexit compatible with the kind of social democratic principles laid out in their inspirational General Election manifesto. Staying in the Customs Union is not only good economics, its also hard headed pragmatic politics, the alternative, the Tory WTO membership and a la la land gamble on achieving multiple trade deals around the globe really has not been thought through.
The Single Market has a lot going for it, and for anyone not anti immigrant or xenophobic, free movement should not be problematic. But there must be red lines, an effective Lexit that allows Britain, under a Labour party now restored to its traditional social democrat political principles, cannot allow itself to be hamstrung by the neoliberal restrictions drawn up by the globalist elites and embedded in EU treaties, nor by EU trade/investor protection treaties.
I would argue that the red lines must include the freedom for UK industrial policy to have increased state aid, infant industry protection and public ownership, and that the UK is exempt from the provisions of CETA, and of any post Trump revived TTIP. Those red lines certainly have a more realistic chance of finding agreement with the EU27 than the anti immigrant agenda of the Tory/Ukip right wing Brexit.
What we need first is to force another General Election, and to get a transformative Labour government elected. Very few General Elections change anything significantly. 1945 and 1979 are the only elections in the last century that qualify, the next election will, I hope, bring change of the same magnitude.
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Post by midfieldgeneral on Aug 3, 2017 9:28:00 GMT
I too, voted remain and I am pleased that Brexit and the Corbyn led Labour Party, has effectively destroyed the Maybot and the C
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Post by midfieldgeneral on Aug 3, 2017 9:46:09 GMT
I too, voted remain, but, I am pleased that Brexit and the Corbyn led Labour Party, has effectively destroyed Maybot and the Conservatives. I think the Government will fall, and the final vote on the terms of Breixt., will be the catalyst. Labour's 'jobs first' Brexit, with membership of the custom's union and single market membership, will be a priority. (With the 'red lines, above included). A 'Hard Brexit', would be an economic disaster, that only the Tory Headbangers, Racists and Daily Mail readers ,would support. The Conservatives are, in a very difficult position, in that whoever they replace May with, be it Boris Johnson, Gove or Davis, they are all toxic to Remainers. lol It is now abundantly clear that Labour can and will win the next election, with a socialist, re-distributive agenda.
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Post by Maravilla on Aug 10, 2017 20:40:15 GMT
I too, voted remain, but, I am pleased that Brexit and the Corbyn led Labour Party, has effectively destroyed Maybot and the Conservatives. I think the Government will fall, and the final vote on the terms of Breixt., will be the catalyst. Labour's 'jobs first' Brexit, with membership of the custom's union and single market membership, will be a priority. (With the 'red lines, above included). A 'Hard Brexit', would be an economic disaster, that only the Tory Headbangers, Racists and Daily Mail readers ,would support. The Conservatives are, in a very difficult position, in that whoever they replace May with, be it Boris Johnson, Gove or Davis, they are all toxic to Remainers. lol It is now abundantly clear that Labour can and will win the next election, with a socialist, re-distributive agenda. This 'hard' and 'soft' Brexit stuff really irritates me. What you are essentially talking about is leaving or remaining. The fact of the matter is, remaining in the customs union and the single market is essentially remaining in the European Union. The only slight difference would be that we wouldn't have a say on rules and legislation that would impact us, as we would be giving up our representation at the EU Council of Ministers and the European Parliament where the key decisions and legislation is made. I wish politicians would stop trying to dress this up - soft Brexit, in most cases, means ignoring the referendum and staying in the European Union. It's just a way of saying it without sounding like an outright anti-democrat like the Liberal Democrats. The current Labour party position is not to remain in the single market and customs union, regardless of how many times Chuka Umunna says it is.
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Post by bluesince72 on Aug 15, 2017 0:51:09 GMT
The EU referendum was held at the most inappropriate time possible, and for the most irresponsible reason, to try to keep unity in the Tory party. The resulting vote was as much a vote on a Status quo vs. Change question as it was about EU membership.
The all or nothing clean Brexit clarion call of many leave voters is pure economic madness. I voted to leave the EU and its political structures, but not to ditch our vital trade and cultural links with the EU. But herein lays the problem, the binary Leave/Remain question was a travesty, a sham perversion of democracy, as it treated a complex question as being answerable with a one word answer, well it can’t be. The ‘half in’ claim has much truth, but that half is the trade and cultural elements, that which is worth keeping, the undemocratic political structures are the side of the EU that we are right to ditch. ANY trade deal means a diminution of national autonomy, compromises to aim at equal benefits for both sides have to be made, the single market and customs union are no exception. We are not living on an island that will float off into the Atlantic come March 2019. This delusion is beginning to run up against harsh reality, as the floundering Brexit ministers look increasingly out of their depth.
The case for remaining in the EEA, and therefore the single market is contentious, but only because of the xenophobic opposition to free movement, take that away and it would have overwhelming public support. The Customs Union is the more important issue, and what a moments thought should make perfectly clear, is that to leave the EU customs Union for an ill thought-out WTO la la land, in the hope of somehow agreeing multiple trade deal around the globe, including a fresh one with our largest trading partner, the EU27, is totally unrealistic, and represents economic lunacy of the highest order. It is a recipe for chaos. The government have not got a clue how they can achieve their aim, and are admitting as much with talk of a transition period in which the UK remains in the Customs Union for a time following Brexit. I doubt they will get that agreed by the EU27, and even if they can, the economic cliff face will still be awaiting us when it expires.
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Post by midfieldgeneral on Aug 15, 2017 22:15:40 GMT
Absolutely, the Tories created this mess and they need to own it and the consequences. The UK is already the slowest growing economy, in the euro zone and they are still putting party unity, above the economy. Tic toc. lol
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Post by Hannibal on Aug 16, 2017 14:34:34 GMT
What about the Irish border problem?
The only feasible solution is a united Ireland surely, but would the south want to take on the troublesome north now that the DUP are in this toxic relationship with the Tories.
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Post by Derry Blue on Aug 21, 2017 12:12:02 GMT
What about the Irish border problem? The only feasible solution is a united Ireland surely, but would the south want to take on the troublesome north now that the DUP are in this toxic relationship with the Tories. Of course they would. But they're not going to get it.
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Post by Hannibal on Aug 21, 2017 13:55:05 GMT
What about the Irish border problem? The only feasible solution is a united Ireland surely, but would the south want to take on the troublesome north now that the DUP are in this toxic relationship with the Tories. Of course they would. But they're not going to get it. Why not? A United Ireland, it's not if but when. Ulster will one re-join it's fellow Irish provinces. I'm a neutral, but that's what I feel most decent people want.
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Post by Derry Blue on Aug 23, 2017 8:17:45 GMT
Of course they would. But they're not going to get it. Why not? A United Ireland, it's not if but when. Ulster will one re-join it's fellow Irish provinces. I'm a neutral, but that's what I feel most decent people want. "Most decent people" where?
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Post by Hannibal on Aug 23, 2017 8:35:05 GMT
People who aren't bigots.
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Post by Derry Blue on Aug 23, 2017 12:02:42 GMT
People who aren't bigots. Typical generalisation response with those who disagree with your (obviously correct) view. I wonder if you're a Corbynista?
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Post by Al on Aug 23, 2017 13:14:14 GMT
If the people of Northern Ireland want to unify with the Republic then they should be allowed to unify with the rest of Ireland. How would they decide to do that? Referendum of course.
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Post by Derry Blue on Aug 23, 2017 13:23:41 GMT
If the people of Northern Ireland want to unify with the Republic then they should be allowed to unify with the rest of Ireland. How would they decide to do that? Referendum of course. I could agree with that as a possible solution. Mind you, would either side of the argument agree with the result if it didn't go their way. Having said that, one side of the argument is composed of "bigots" anyway according to the binary view of some.
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Post by Al on Aug 24, 2017 10:22:36 GMT
If the people of Northern Ireland want to unify with the Republic then they should be allowed to unify with the rest of Ireland. How would they decide to do that? Referendum of course. I could agree with that as a possible solution. Mind you, would either side of the argument agree with the result if it didn't go their way. Having said that, one side of the argument is composed of "bigots" anyway according to the binary view of some. Either way it's a very delicate situation over there - as it always has been.
Looks like there's going to be a hard border again anyway. Shame that, I was lucky enough to spent 6 months working over in Derry about 10 years ago, used to pop over the border in the evenings a few times and go for dinner to the Railway Tavern in Fahan with the rest of our mob, the only way you'd know you'd crossed over to the Republic was the road markings and signs suddenly changing.
Sad that it could be a very different experience for the locals in the not so distant future.
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Post by Firestick Frank on Aug 26, 2017 21:41:34 GMT
Londonderry*
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Post by Derry Blue on Aug 28, 2017 7:53:59 GMT
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Post by Lobster on Aug 28, 2017 10:20:51 GMT
They need to sort that Derry/Londonderry mess out surely, even if it means giving the place a new neutral name. I'm not really bothered what people call it, but I should be able to talk about a city without the fear of getting my head kicked in.
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Post by Hannibal on Aug 28, 2017 12:12:58 GMT
They need to sort that Derry/Londonderry mess out surely, even if it means giving the place a new neutral name. I'm not really bothered what people call it, but I should be able to talk about a city without the fear of getting my head kicked in. Don't Derry City play their football in the ROI?
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