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Post by Hannibal on Oct 8, 2017 17:26:33 GMT
Any England fans travelling to watch that match need psychiatric help.
Who the **** is Winks. Did he win a "play for England competition"?
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Post by Captain Duff on Oct 8, 2017 17:46:04 GMT
Who else can get selected? It is all down to the continuing cancer of the Premiership and the way that it is freezing out English born players as what is it down to now, around a third of players in top Prem clubs are English born and potentially eligible for call up? That compares to more than half the Bundesliga players being German born, which is reflected in their national team success. Right now England are little more than a Championship standard squad, something that will likely get worse, not better.
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Post by Rio Doherty on Oct 8, 2017 18:05:51 GMT
Another 90 minutes wasted watching utter boredom.
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Post by billyw on Oct 8, 2017 18:28:54 GMT
Who else can get selected? It is all down to the continuing cancer of the Premiership and the way that it is freezing out English born players as what is it down to now, around a third of players in top Prem clubs are English born and potentially eligible for call up? That compares to more than half the Bundesliga players being German born, which is reflected in their national team success. Right now England are little more than a Championship standard squad, something that will likely get worse, not better. Agreed. When England won the World Cup, Alf Ramsey had about 200 players in the top flight to chose from. Southgate has about 50 at a push. |
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Post by Lobster on Oct 8, 2017 20:33:00 GMT
So pick players from the lower leagues then. The standard of English players should be the same, it's just the level they play at that should be different. In theory, that means the lower leagues should be getting stronger and stronger as English players filter down the leagues.
'Too many foreigners' is a lazy excuse I think, almost a Daily Mail excuse in fact. Do La Liga, the Bundesliga and Serie A not have foreign players in them? So how come Spain, Germany and Italy are still good sides? The rise in international transfers has affected all leagues but clubs will always just want the best players regardless of where they're from, and the best players right now are certainly not English!
Also worth considering that there's nothing stopping English players moving abroad if they want to play at the highest possible level - something they very rarely do.
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Post by Wortleyblue on Oct 8, 2017 20:33:42 GMT
Another 90 minutes wasted watching utter boredom. I'm just glad I got an extra 90 minutes of life by not watching that shite what was the score by the way |
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Post by Rio Doherty on Oct 8, 2017 20:36:01 GMT
Another 90 minutes wasted watching utter boredom. I'm just glad I got an extra 90 minutes of life by not watching that shite what was the score by the way 1-0 to us, against Lithuania of all teams. To make things sound even more depressing was that it was a Harry Kane penalty which won it for us. Lucky you, Wortley Blue! |
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Post by Captain Duff on Oct 8, 2017 21:43:43 GMT
So pick players from the lower leagues then. The standard of English players should be the same, it's just the level they play at that should be different. In theory, that means the lower leagues should be getting stronger and stronger as English players filter down the leagues. 'Too many foreigners' is a lazy excuse I think, almost a Daily Mail excuse in fact. Do La Liga, the Bundesliga and Serie A not have foreign players in them? So how come Spain, Germany and Italy are still good sides? The rise in international transfers has affected all leagues but clubs will always just want the best players regardless of where they're from, and the best players right now are certainly not English! Also worth considering that there's nothing stopping English players moving abroad if they want to play at the highest possible level - something they very rarely do. It doesn't work like that though does it, as the lack of spaces for English players in the top clubs because so many top players are here from abroad means that fewer are able to get into the top flight and develop their game to be international standard. It is nothing to do with being anti-foreigner, it is about limited development routes combined with less home young players coming through academies into top teams these days because clubs splash the cash (and a lot of it) on fully formed pre-packaged imports, it is instant talent but it is also damaging for the national team. Ironically, this also helps other nations whose absent top players who are in English prem clubs free up spaces in the top clubs in their domestic leagues for their players to develop and grow into. But as I said, if you want to know why the German team has for years been in a different league to England you can do worse than to start with the comparison between the Premier League and the Bundesliga in the numbers of home players playing in them. |
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Post by Maravilla on Oct 8, 2017 21:57:33 GMT
Gave up watching England after Euro 2016.
Used to be so passionate about it, then it all changed after that tournament. I remember watching the Iceland game and not really being bothered about it, because I knew even if we got through that we would be out at the next round.
The appointment of Southgate was the nail in the coffin though. Truly earth shattering that a man of such little managerial experience could be given the honour of managing England. It just make a mockery of the whole thing for me.
I will probably watch during the World Cup, but I won't do so with same vigour and passion that I used to. Not sure I will ever get that back, which is sad. I'm sure the same can be said for many others.
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Post by Lobster on Oct 9, 2017 6:19:50 GMT
So pick players from the lower leagues then. The standard of English players should be the same, it's just the level they play at that should be different. In theory, that means the lower leagues should be getting stronger and stronger as English players filter down the leagues. 'Too many foreigners' is a lazy excuse I think, almost a Daily Mail excuse in fact. Do La Liga, the Bundesliga and Serie A not have foreign players in them? So how come Spain, Germany and Italy are still good sides? The rise in international transfers has affected all leagues but clubs will always just want the best players regardless of where they're from, and the best players right now are certainly not English! Also worth considering that there's nothing stopping English players moving abroad if they want to play at the highest possible level - something they very rarely do. It doesn't work like that though does it, as the lack of spaces for English players in the top clubs because so many top players are here from abroad means that fewer are able to get into the top flight and develop their game to be international standard. It is nothing to do with being anti-foreigner, it is about limited development routes combined with less home young players coming through academies into top teams these days because clubs splash the cash (and a lot of it) on fully formed pre-packaged imports, it is instant talent but it is also damaging for the national team. Ironically, this also helps other nations whose absent top players who are in English prem clubs free up spaces in the top clubs in their domestic leagues for their players to develop and grow into. But as I said, if you want to know why the German team has for years been in a different league to England you can do worse than to start with the comparison between the Premier League and the Bundesliga in the numbers of home players playing in them. Do you not think though that the reason the Bundesliga has more home-grown players is because German players are better than English ones? As I said, teams are just looking for the best players they can get, whether they're from England, Germany or Mars. I didn't mean to suggest you were simply moaning about foreigners, and it's true that the Premier League has handled the more global transfer market especially badly, but I still think it's a convenient excuse that masks a bigger problem. England has a problem with coaching. I doubt there's another league in the world that hasn't been won by a manager from that country in the last 25 years. It sums it up that if you want an English manager in charge of the national team, Southgate probably is about the best candidate unless you go for a rookie like Howe or Dyche. Our players also lack natural ability. There's only one player from the home nations at the moment who is anywhere near world class and he's Welsh. That's another point - surely any weaknesses with the Premier League should be hindering the other home nations even more than England, but they're all doing pretty well - particularly Wales and Northern Ireland. The Republic could still qualify and Scotland must be kicking themselves that they started so poorly. Wales showed in Euro 2016 what can be done with a good manager and a different mentality, and in getting to a semi they did something England haven't managed in two decades. It's a grassroots problem I think. I don't have all the answers, but I don't think the FA's London-centric attitude helps, and nor has the government's austerity programme. |
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Post by Hannibal on Oct 9, 2017 7:46:44 GMT
I think the difference between England players and the Germans, French, Dutch and a lesser extent the Italians is that they are better educated, more intelligent and do the basics better than our players. What would Wayne Rooney be doing if he were not good at football? The continentals also have more natural ability which probably comes from their football structure being more conducive to a successful national team. Compart the attributes of say Joachim Loew and Gareth Southgate ... see the difference.
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Post by Lobster on Oct 9, 2017 7:49:29 GMT
What would Wayne Rooney be doing if he were not good at football? I think some of his off-the-field controversies answer that question! |
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Post by Hannibal on Oct 9, 2017 8:50:50 GMT
What would Wayne Rooney be doing if he were not good at football? I think some of his off-the-field controversies answer that question! I didn't want to say what I think he'd be doing for libel reasons. |
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Post by Wortleyblue on Oct 9, 2017 12:19:43 GMT
I agree with Captain Duff the problem with our structure is the top flight is full of the best players from around the world leaving no places for our home grown talent to get beyond the Championship whereas because all their players are over here means there are places in their top flights for players to progress beyond the 2nd tier and develop into better players which = better National Team the FA will never learn as they cant see beyond lining their pockets with all the £££££££££££££££££s flying about
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Post by iandychesterfc on Oct 9, 2017 12:25:24 GMT
It doesn't work like that though does it, as the lack of spaces for English players in the top clubs because so many top players are here from abroad means that fewer are able to get into the top flight and develop their game to be international standard. It is nothing to do with being anti-foreigner, it is about limited development routes combined with less home young players coming through academies into top teams these days because clubs splash the cash (and a lot of it) on fully formed pre-packaged imports, it is instant talent but it is also damaging for the national team. Ironically, this also helps other nations whose absent top players who are in English prem clubs free up spaces in the top clubs in their domestic leagues for their players to develop and grow into. But as I said, if you want to know why the German team has for years been in a different league to England you can do worse than to start with the comparison between the Premier League and the Bundesliga in the numbers of home players playing in them. Do you not think though that the reason the Bundesliga has more home-grown players is because German players are better than English ones? As I said, teams are just looking for the best players they can get, whether they're from England, Germany or Mars. I didn't mean to suggest you were simply moaning about foreigners, and it's true that the Premier League has handled the more global transfer market especially badly, but I still think it's a convenient excuse that masks a bigger problem. England has a problem with coaching. I doubt there's another league in the world that hasn't been won by a manager from that country in the last 25 years. It sums it up that if you want an English manager in charge of the national team, Southgate probably is about the best candidate unless you go for a rookie like Howe or Dyche. Our players also lack natural ability. There's only one player from the home nations at the moment who is anywhere near world class and he's Welsh. That's another point - surely any weaknesses with the Premier League should be hindering the other home nations even more than England, but they're all doing pretty well - particularly Wales and Northern Ireland. The Republic could still qualify and Scotland must be kicking themselves that they started so poorly. Wales showed in Euro 2016 what can be done with a good manager and a different mentality, and in getting to a semi they did something England haven't managed in two decades. It's a grassroots problem I think. I don't have all the answers, but I don't think the FA's London-centric attitude helps, and nor has the government's austerity programme. Can't agree with this, i also saw Leon Knight go on a rant himself just yesterday. The issue has been since the academy system was put in place PL club hoard young talent and the players don't play their way through as much as they used to. Added to that :- To say our players are not as good is simply untrue when you look at the U17-U20 success. This shows you that English players are as good, if not better than any team in the world, the difference comes beyond that where they don't have the opportunity to progress. For whatever reasons premier league managers are not brave enough to play youth. Add that to the financial muscle to pay whatever it costs for players for the right now, rather than players for the future and it's hard to see how the U20s will get a game whereas those in Germany and Italy are playing top-flight football. |
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Post by Charfield Blue on Oct 9, 2017 12:27:04 GMT
I think the difference between England players and the Germans, French, Dutch and a lesser extent the Italians is that they are better educated, more intelligent and do the basics better than our players. What would Wayne Rooney be doing if he were not good at football? The continentals also have more natural ability which probably comes from their football structure being more conducive to a successful national team. Compart the attributes of say Joachim Loew and Gareth Southgate ... see the difference. The relative success of the England youth teams over recent times would indicate that we have the talent, it's that next stage in their development where we are failing them and that can only be down to the limited opportunity that Captain points out. |
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Post by rcb on Oct 9, 2017 12:36:23 GMT
Who else can get selected? It is all down to the continuing cancer of the Premiership and the way that it is freezing out English born players as what is it down to now, around a third of players in top Prem clubs are English born and potentially eligible for call up? That compares to more than half the Bundesliga players being German born, which is reflected in their national team success. Right now England are little more than a Championship standard squad, something that will likely get worse, not better. If being "English" was simply about being born in England there wouldn't be an England cricket team! Dutch players have Dutch passports, German players have German passports, Italian players have Italian passports. No English players have an English passport, because there is no such thing. Some uninformed people even write "English" when asked what their nationality is. England is not a nation. What constitutes being English? In many cases it is a flag of convenience opted for on the basis of earning more money. I accept a person can naturalise as a British citizen, thereby gaining a British passport and becoming eligible to represent Gt. Britain. Under current rules they are then eligible to opt to represent any of the four home countries. Surely a nonsense situation. Remember Liverpool FC in Europe a few years ago having to declare Ian Rush, born in St. Asaph less than twenty miles away, and with a British passport, as a foreign player, and yet John Barnes, born in Kingston Jamaica over 4,000 miles away, with Jamaican parents, was accepted as English, also with a British passport. Was Michael Owen really Welsh, being brought up in Wales, and what of Ryan Giggs being Welsh? There is no satisfactory answer to what makes a person, English, Welsh, Scottish, or Northern Irish. Other than a front door Chester FC is a Welsh club. Perhaps if we moved the front door we would become handsomely financed by Wales. |
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