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Post by waggoner on Oct 16, 2017 8:15:08 GMT
As it stands we appear to have reached our level (however, i'm not sure we will be able to sustain life in the national league). If we get relegated it will be the beginning of the end for this club. The reason? There are better and bigger clubs in the national league north, quite a few bankrolled.
I very much doubt we would be much more than a mid table club even at that level. Bottom line...we need more investment, or to put it simpily MONEY. 1,000 more through the gate would help, but that's never going to happen at £18 a pop and playing the shite we do week in week out. In fact our gates will be around 1,200-1,300 before long. That means even less revenue.
So what i'm putting out is a question. Do we bite the bullet and bring someone onboard with a bit of know how money and links to other people but give up total fan ownership?,Or do we go on as we are? Because if we do we will start the slow descent into the Evostick leagues. and if we do, i very much doubt if our gates will be around 2,600 like the last time we played at that level. Look at FCUM this season, struggling in National league north gates down 600, what's the future for themif they go down? (well if they did they could always start supporting united).
In my opinion (which i am fully entitled to this being a discussion board) we cannot continue as 100% a fan owned club if we want to progress. We need investment.
Yes there is an element of risk involved in letting someone else in BUT an even bigger risk by just doing nothing and watching the club go backwards year on year
So what are other peoples views? ...Discuss.
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Post by yossergolf on Oct 16, 2017 8:21:06 GMT
No one can argue with the message you have clearly spelt out. There was always going to be a limit to what can be achieved without an influx of cash from somewhere. Football at divisions 2 and below is difficult to sustain without a sugar daddy.
We as members of the CFU have to decide but I do agree we have reached our level.
Hopefully a bit of dealing by the manager and board can get in a couple of additions that could spark the current squad in to life, if that happens then it might stop the decline in attendances
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Post by Lobster on Oct 16, 2017 9:05:19 GMT
I get what people are saying, but then I look at clubs like AFC Wimbledon and Exeter who are doing well as fan-owned models.
I think we've started to dream very low. The last few clubs to win this league (Barnet, Cheltenham, Lincoln) are not dissimilar clubs to us I don't think, especially the first two. Yes, they all splashed a bit more cash than we're able to, but the main thing they had was good managers.
If we were to bring in investors, personally I think I would lose a lot of interest.
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Post by billyw on Oct 16, 2017 9:06:40 GMT
Good post Waggoner. I've said repeatedly that fan ownership can only work when a club has a sizeable fan base and which is willing to dip their hands in their pockets. We are lacking on both counts so unless we can find investment, we can jog on as a fan owned club but it certainly won't be in this league. The problem is of course, unless it is an avid supporter who has won the lottery, we are unlikely to get anyone to invest in the club as there is nothing to invest in.
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Post by rcb on Oct 16, 2017 9:07:06 GMT
Interesting post, and one which has the potential to attract the condemnation of several who are hell bent on the fan owned model. I do believe we have suffered the consequences of living in a professional environment with a bunch of optimistic amateurs. I'm sat at home at the moment watching Rip-off Britain and feel we have similarities in many respects. With the best of intentions we have been gullibly duped into throwing good cash after bad. Too many players who take a wage without giving a damn. Selfish managers who don't do a decent job, and all endorsed with a smiling CEO who I sense is not as he appears.
I would be happy if we had reached our limit, but it seems we are out of our depth and falling towards oblivion. The crisis could not be worse and we are definitely in the last chance saloon. We should give all we can now to ensure remaining in this league. No point saving for the future, because we won't have a future if relegated.
We have attracted the wrong people all too often, be it with an owner or a fan owned model.
I thought we missed the chance to save the club when the board correctly identified the error of retaining the services of the Burr and McCarthy management team. Unfortunately the amateurs were duped into the wrong decision by retaining McCarthy, the cheap option. Those in charge, recently and currently, are responsible for the plight of the club. Marcus Bignot has to prove he is the right man for the job because it is now all or nothing. I simply want to be a supporter of a sustainable lower level football club, so forget the nonsensical and antagonistic responses that I don't have a right to an opinion because I don't stand for the board, or send large lump sums to amateurs to further waste. Such condescending attitudes have lost the support of a thousand already!
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Post by Hannibal on Oct 16, 2017 9:25:12 GMT
I get what people are saying, but then I look at clubs like AFC Wimbledon and Exeter who are doing well as fan-owned models. I think we've started to dream very low. The last few clubs to win this league ( Barnet, Cheltenham, Lincoln) are not dissimilar clubs to us I don't think, especially the first two. Yes, they all splashed a bit more cash than we're able to, but the main thing they had was good managers. If we were to bring in investors, personally I think I would lose a lot of interest. Kleanthous has been bank-rolling Barnet for years. Lincoln got the investment from an Australian fan which allowed them to sign among others Rhead, which was the catalyst for their amazing run in the cup last season. Not sure about Cheltenham, but would guess they have some investment I would welcome outside investment as I agree we have hit a glass ceiling as far as fan-owned is concerned |
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Post by southernblue on Oct 16, 2017 10:00:19 GMT
We are always going to have a limit as to how far we can go, if we get back in the league we would be in for a hell of a struggle. Even if we had investment that took us to league one, if we are near the bottom of that league, it's not much fun watching a losing team. I still believe in fan ownership, and if we do get relegated, even if we end up back in the Evostik, to see us winning at friendly clubs is better than losing control of our club to a businessman and risking it all going pop again when they get bored.
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Post by richard on Oct 16, 2017 10:02:26 GMT
As it stands we appear to have reached our level (however, i'm not sure we will be able to sustain life in the national league). If we get relegated it will be the beginning of the end for this club. The reason? There are better and bigger clubs in the national league north, quite a few bankrolled. I very much doubt we would be much more than a mid table club even at that level. Bottom line...we need more investment, or to put it simpily MONEY. 1,000 more through the gate would help, but that's never going to happen at £18 a pop and playing the shite we do week in week out. In fact our gates will be around 1,200-1,300 before long. That means even less revenue. So what i'm putting out is a question. Do we bite the bullet and bring someone onboard with a bit of know how money and links to other people but give up total fan ownership?,Or do we go on as we are? Because if we do we will start the slow descent into the Evostick leagues. and if we do, i very much doubt if our gates will be around 2,600 like the last time we played at that level. Look at FCUM this season, struggling in National league north gates down 600, what's the future for themif they go down? (well if they did they could always start supporting united). In my opinion (which i am fully entitled to this being a discussion board) we cannot continue as 100% a fan owned club if we want to progress. We need investment. Yes there is an element of risk involved in letting someone else in BUT an even bigger risk by just doing nothing and watching the club go backwards year on year So what are other peoples views? ...Discuss. If an investor was to appear with an interest in the club, it would be up to the membership to decide if they wanted to change the model. I would vote no, but it's all about personal choice. |
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Post by chesterken on Oct 16, 2017 10:47:34 GMT
As it stands we appear to have reached our level (however, i'm not sure we will be able to sustain life in the national league). If we get relegated it will be the beginning of the end for this club. The reason? There are better and bigger clubs in the national league north, quite a few bankrolled. I very much doubt we would be much more than a mid table club even at that level. Bottom line...we need more investment, or to put it simpily MONEY. 1,000 more through the gate would help, but that's never going to happen at £18 a pop and playing the shite we do week in week out. In fact our gates will be around 1,200-1,300 before long. That means even less revenue. So what i'm putting out is a question. Do we bite the bullet and bring someone onboard with a bit of know how money and links to other people but give up total fan ownership?,Or do we go on as we are? Because if we do we will start the slow descent into the Evostick leagues. and if we do, i very much doubt if our gates will be around 2,600 like the last time we played at that level. Look at FCUM this season, struggling in National league north gates down 600, what's the future for themif they go down? (well if they did they could always start supporting united). In my opinion (which i am fully entitled to this being a discussion board) we cannot continue as 100% a fan owned club if we want to progress. We need investment. Yes there is an element of risk involved in letting someone else in BUT an even bigger risk by just doing nothing and watching the club go backwards year on year So what are other peoples views? ...Discuss. If an investor was to appear with an interest in the club, it would be up to the membership to decide if they wanted to change the model. I would vote no, but it's all about personal choice. How many people have thrown obscene amounts of money into Football clubs and seen only short term gain or non at all, I am happy with the way we are if it means we drop down then that’s just the way it has to be, I will still be here supporting next year. |
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Post by Lobster on Oct 16, 2017 11:23:07 GMT
If an investor was to appear with an interest in the club, it would be up to the membership to decide if they wanted to change the model. I would vote no, but it's all about personal choice. How many people have thrown obscene amounts of money into Football clubs and seen only short term gain or non at all, I am happy with the way we are if it means we drop down then that’s just the way it has to be, I will still be here supporting next year. Tend to agree. I think some people should be careful what they wish for. I just think we need to become a little bit better at being a supporter owned club. For our first five seasons, we kept finishing higher and higher. The 2014/15 season where we finished 12th and got to the 2nd Round of the Cup should've been a great platform to build on, but somehow we've regressed since. It probably didn't help that even though the team was improving, attendances were dropping - something I think can be partially put down to some ill-advised price increases and the mistake of converting to poor, identikit website and paid subscription based commentaries and highlights. These were small things but they were the first signs of the supporter-first ethos beginning to wane. Things have moved in the right direction with the excellent new website and YouTube channel, but as NWAS says, the board can be a bit invisible. I don't doubt they work hard, but they seen very distant. None of them communicate with us on here, and I'd struggle to put a face to some of them. It might not be a bad idea if someone other than Maguire made the odd YouTube or local media appearance now and again, as it would just help familiarise us with the rest of the board. Being a supporter owned club offers great possibilities, but it seems at times like we only embrace its limitations. It's a selling point and something that makes us genuinely different. This applies to us as fans too - consider what you can do for the club, however small, and don't do it with an eye towards getting something back in return. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 11:53:12 GMT
I get what people are saying, but then I look at clubs like AFC Wimbledon and Exeter who are doing well as fan-owned models. I think we've started to dream very low. The last few clubs to win this league (Barnet, Cheltenham, Lincoln) are not dissimilar clubs to us I don't think, especially the first two. Yes, they all splashed a bit more cash than we're able to, but the main thing they had was good managers. If we were to bring in investors, personally I think I would lose a lot of interest. Spot on. |
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Post by Al on Oct 16, 2017 12:20:31 GMT
I get what people are saying, but then I look at clubs like AFC Wimbledon and Exeter who are doing well as fan-owned models. I think we've started to dream very low. The last few clubs to win this league ( Barnet, Cheltenham, Lincoln) are not dissimilar clubs to us I don't think, especially the first two. Yes, they all splashed a bit more cash than we're able to, but the main thing they had was good managers. If we were to bring in investors, personally I think I would lose a lot of interest. Kleanthous has been bank-rolling Barnet for years. Lincoln got the investment from an Australian fan which allowed them to sign among others Rhead, which was the catalyst for their amazing run in the cup last season. Not sure about Cheltenham, but would guess they have some investment I would welcome outside investment as I agree we have hit a glass ceiling as far as fan-owned is concerned Cheltenham threw all their parachute money into the playing budget to try and bounce back at the first attempt. That's why they bounced back when and how they did. Gary Johnson was like a kid in a sweet shop during that pre-season. The above examples of Wimbledon and Exeter could have been a lifetime ago now. The whole dynamic of football at this level has changed, there are far more clubs bankrolled, far more full time sides to boot than there was when Exeter and the real Dons went up. In order for us to challenge for promotion we would need a real quality run in the cup to the third round and hope to get a juicy away tie at a top flight club. With the contracts we can hand out to youngsters we are never likely to sell them on for mega amounts of cash. It'll always be around the 100-150k mark. First things first though, we need to find a way of making money NOW so that MB can make the changes that we so desperately need |
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Post by waggoner on Oct 16, 2017 12:43:54 GMT
I get what people are saying, but then I look at clubs like AFC Wimbledon and Exeter who are doing well as fan-owned models. I think we've started to dream very low. The last few clubs to win this league (Barnet, Cheltenham, Lincoln) are not dissimilar clubs to us I don't think, especially the first two. Yes, they all splashed a bit more cash than we're able to, but the main thing they had was good managers. If we were to bring in investors, personally I think I would lose a lot of interest.Spot on. I know what you are saying. BUT if we don't get a lot of money into the club quickly we will also lose a lot of interest because we are in a relegation battle that IMHO the manager will struggle to get us out of due to a lack of resources available to him. We are a semi pro club run by volunteers and relying on our very small fanbase to sort it out. If we need more money who's going to be expected to generate it?. Yep us the fans. If we don't put our cash in we will be relegated..if this happens i think we won't survive as a club. If we sell out to an 'invester' we could also end up going bust. We need an EGM to highlight what can be done. The EGM should also be open to non members of the CFU, who have no voting rights but nontheless are still supporters of the club |
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Post by mcseal on Oct 16, 2017 12:55:50 GMT
I know what you are saying. BUT if we don't get a lot of money into the club quickly we will also lose a lot of interest because we are in a relegation battle that IMHO the manager will struggle to get us out of due to a lack of resources available to him. We are a semi pro club run by volunteers and relying on our very small fanbase to sort it out. If we need more money who's going to be expected to generate it?. Yep us the fans. If we don't put our cash in we will be relegated..if this happens i think we won't survive as a club. If we sell out to an 'invester' we could also end up going bust. We need an EGM to highlight what can be done. The EGM should also be open to non members of the CFU, who have no voting rights but nontheless are still supporters of the club All a bit academic isn't it? Unless you know of someone with a couple of £milion to ahem 'invest' (aka: piss up the wall). |
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Post by lookingin on Oct 16, 2017 13:17:38 GMT
If our goal is to get back in the football league. Then we need proper investment for at least 5 season. And by that I don't mean 25k from a sponsored walk or a car boot sale.
With proper investment we still will find it hard to get promoted .
Our number 1 priority as a fan own club is to Chester not the league. To our community that we all come from. I think of all the money we have wasted on managers and bad contracts and see our league position. We could have the best youth football school integrated with the community schools. Which would make us all proud of being a fan owned club which has Chester and the communitys it's number 1 priority . Not the league we play in.
Does it matter what league we play in as long as we have our club.
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Post by kyle on Oct 16, 2017 13:59:38 GMT
If our goal is to get back in the football league. Then we need proper investment for at least 5 season. And by that I don't mean 25k from a sponsored walk or a car boot sale. With proper investment we still will find it hard to get promoted . Our number 1 priority as a fan own club is to Chester not the league. To our community that we all come from. I think of all the money we have wasted on managers and bad contracts and see our league position. We could have the best youth football school integrated with the community schools. Which would make us all proud of being a fan owned club which has Chester and the communitys it's number 1 priority . Not the league we play in. Does it matter what league we play in as long as we have our club. Yes it does matter. I want to support a club that plays a reasonable standard of football against proper teams with proper support. That means the football league Playing in front of a couple of hundred people in conference north or worse is a glorified pub team You may be happy to settle for that, you may feel being fan owned is an achievement in itself. I do not. Chester had a league team for over 100 years. It's an insult to the hard work of everyone involved in the history of the club to settle for being amateur |
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Post by midfieldgeneral on Oct 16, 2017 14:03:23 GMT
I understand the points being made. However, at the last reading it would appear Macclesfield are top, with a similar budget to us.
The main difference is a brilliant manager who knows this league inside out.
Also, other clubs eg, Halifax have survived relegation to the Conference North and bounced back.
It is not about outside investment, look at Tranmere, it is more about getting better and more professional, as a fan owned model.
Develop players from the lower leagues or those discarded by Premiership clubs and bring our own players through, rather than give lengthy contracts to lower league journeymen, looking for one last pay off.
The Sam Hughes money had the potential to make us play off challengers, but has been well and truly wasted.
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Post by richard on Oct 16, 2017 14:35:51 GMT
How many people have thrown obscene amounts of money into Football clubs and seen only short term gain or non at all, I am happy with the way we are if it means we drop down then that’s just the way it has to be, I will still be here supporting next year. Tend to agree. I think some people should be careful what they wish for. I just think we need to become a little bit better at being a supporter owned club. For our first five seasons, we kept finishing higher and higher. The 2014/15 season where we finished 12th and got to the 2nd Round of the Cup should've been a great platform to build on, but somehow we've regressed since. It probably didn't help that even though the team was improving, attendances were dropping - something I think can be partially put down to some ill-advised price increases and the mistake of converting to poor, identikit website and paid subscription based commentaries and highlights. These were small things but they were the first signs of the supporter-first ethos beginning to wane. Things have moved in the right direction with the excellent new website and YouTube channel, but as NWAS says, the board can be a bit invisible. I don't doubt they work hard, but they seen very distant. None of them communicate with us on here, and I'd struggle to put a face to some of them. It might not be a bad idea if someone other than Maguire made the odd YouTube or local media appearance now and again, as it would just help familiarise us with the rest of the board. Being a supporter owned club offers great possibilities, but it seems at times like we only embrace its limitations. It's a selling point and something that makes us genuinely different. This applies to us as fans too - consider what you can do for the club, however small, and don't do it with an eye towards getting something back in return. Top post. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 14:35:51 GMT
These are worrying times but we need to all stick together.
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Post by Al on Oct 16, 2017 14:54:11 GMT
I understand the points being made. However, at the last reading it would appear Macclesfield are top, with a similar budget to us. The main difference is a brilliant manager who knows this league inside out. Also, other clubs eg, Halifax have survived relegation to the Conference North and bounced back. It is not about outside investment, look at Tranmere, it is more about getting better and more professional, as a fan owned model.Develop players from the lower leagues or those discarded by Premiership clubs and bring our own players through, rather than give lengthy contracts to lower league journeymen, looking for one last pay off. The Sam Hughes money had the potential to make us play off challengers, but has been well and truly wasted. Tranmere are NOT Fan owned. They're owned by the Palios family. They've been able to spend the money they have because of their crowds and the money they got from selling land at Inglebrough Road. The Inglebrough Road money has been key to their spending over the last couple of years but they need promotion and the solidarity payment they would get from the League would cover most of their operating loss. |
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Post by Al on Oct 16, 2017 14:58:37 GMT
How we build this club into a force is not by chucking 100-200k at the playing budget year on year and hoping for a miracle. It should be have ALWAYS been about sustainable growth.
Any monies we make are then reinvested in the club, improving our facilities, building real improved facilities like all weather pitches, classrooms, conference facilities, corporate matchday hospitality. All of which would bring in more money which in would allow us to grow even more.
What do we got to show for our efforts in terms of real facility improvements in those 7 years?
A Legends Lounge that had a facelift.
What else?
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Post by midfieldgeneral on Oct 16, 2017 15:50:51 GMT
I understand the points being made. However, at the last reading it would appear Macclesfield are top, with a similar budget to us. The main difference is a brilliant manager who knows this league inside out. Also, other clubs eg, Halifax have survived relegation to the Conference North and bounced back. It is not about outside investment, look at Tranmere, it is more about getting better and more professional, as a fan owned model.Develop players from the lower leagues or those discarded by Premiership clubs and bring our own players through, rather than give lengthy contracts to lower league journeymen, looking for one last pay off. The Sam Hughes money had the potential to make us play off challengers, but has been well and truly wasted. Tranmere are NOT Fan owned. They're owned by the Palios family. They've been able to spend the money they have because of their crowds and the money they got from selling land at Inglebrough Road. The Inglebrough Road money has been key to their spending over the last couple of years but they need promotion and the solidarity payment they would get from the League would cover most of their operating loss. I know that. The sentence reads.. It is not about outside investment, look at Tranmere. eg They are privately owned and are not doing too well for all their crowds and money. |
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Post by Captain Duff on Oct 16, 2017 16:11:35 GMT
As it stands we appear to have reached our level (however, i'm not sure we will be able to sustain life in the national league). If we get relegated it will be the beginning of the end for this club. The reason? There are better and bigger clubs in the national league north, quite a few bankrolled. I very much doubt we would be much more than a mid table club even at that level. Bottom line...we need more investment, or to put it simpily MONEY. 1,000 more through the gate would help, but that's never going to happen at £18 a pop and playing the shite we do week in week out. In fact our gates will be around 1,200-1,300 before long. That means even less revenue. So what i'm putting out is a question. Do we bite the bullet and bring someone onboard with a bit of know how money and links to other people but give up total fan ownership?,Or do we go on as we are? Because if we do we will start the slow descent into the Evostick leagues. and if we do, i very much doubt if our gates will be around 2,600 like the last time we played at that level. Look at FCUM this season, struggling in National league north gates down 600, what's the future for themif they go down? (well if they did they could always start supporting united). In my opinion (which i am fully entitled to this being a discussion board) we cannot continue as 100% a fan owned club if we want to progress. We need investment. Yes there is an element of risk involved in letting someone else in BUT an even bigger risk by just doing nothing and watching the club go backwards year on year So what are other peoples views? ...Discuss. Absolute tosh. There are plenty of clubs with private owners and investors that are doing worse than us, that are more badly run than us (have you forgotten the Eastleigh 'waterlogged' pitch game cancellation so quickly?), and that are struggling more than us. But think for a moment how your proposal would work. Currently anyone can invest (i.e., donate, sponsor) our club. There is nothing to stop anyone doing so, however we o not have big money investors queuing up do we even though they are welcome to do so. Ask yourself why that is. It is for two reasons. First, either an investor would want a return. There is no money in football at this level, there would realistically be no return, so 'investment' in making money is a non-starter. So what is left? Well, there are obviously people that do want to 'invest' in clubs but that is by owning them. Controlling them in other words, and so this would not be a place on the board, it would be selling our club and, if we were lucky, CFU have a set or two on the new board and where the new owner can then ignore them (and us come to that). It is giving up everything we have fought for - EVERYTHING. This is a hard league in terms of the dialectic of football standards and income for clubs. My view has always been L2 is easier (the FA grant is at least ten times bigger for starters, and enough to run a basic pro team on). But that is not an excuse for giving up and giving in to inviting offers from another potential shady gangster who needs a money washer. But you also ask the wrong question Waggoner. Our income is suffering due to poor home attendances. Results will make that a bit better again, make more money available to the manager etc. etc., but the real question here is why is it that a fan-owned club in a town a similar size to ours just down the road is averaging nearly twice the home gates that we are - and answer that correct question and you will not then need to pose the wrong one. |
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Post by Wortleyblue on Oct 16, 2017 16:17:19 GMT
If an investor was to appear with an interest in the club, it would be up to the membership to decide if they wanted to change the model. I would vote no, but it's all about personal choice. and seen only short term gain or non at all, I am happy with the way we are if it means we drop down then that’s just the way it has to be, I will still be here supporting next year. Just look where Forest Gump are with all the millions at their disposal I wonder how much more he will throw at it to survive this season. We cant do that we need to build gradually and it has to start now |
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Post by kyle on Oct 16, 2017 16:26:31 GMT
But look at can happen with the right investment with the right ownership. Look where Swansea were in the 90s or Brighton in the 00s. Do you think their fans would swap where they are for fan ownership?
I'm not suggesting we sell out to the first person who turns up with a few quid, but we should not rule it out
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Post by The Swansway on Oct 16, 2017 17:54:30 GMT
Does it matter what league we play in as long as we have our club? Yes. |
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Post by thetheremin on Oct 16, 2017 18:09:35 GMT
I would vote no.
As I've pointed out umpteen times almost all the relegation spots every season from the top to the bottom of the pyramid are filled with privately owned clubs.
I'm willing to be patient. There no financial crisis. What we have is a crisis on the pitch. Obviously staying up this season is the priority right now.
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Post by shango on Oct 16, 2017 18:10:53 GMT
NO.
So long as we have a team we will have fan's be it national league or evo stik.
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