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Post by Deleted on Jan 18, 2018 9:39:55 GMT
Certainly seems to be generating strong views on both sides of the debate both on TV and in the press
Be interested in the views of others on here.
I watched the Chelsea v Norwich game last night and I'm still unsure as to whether it's got a role to play in the longer term. (I recognise it's on trial at the moment) You can see the attempt to reduce errors in respect of controversial decisions but you can also see the interruption to the "flow of the game", an external body having an element of influence over the referee etc etc.
One thing that did concern me last night was that on a couple of occasions, players approached the ref to plead with him to use VAR for what appeared to be relatively straightforward incidents. It's bad enough players remonstrating with refs throughout the game, gesticulating for opponents to be carded etc but I think we don't need this extra intimidation of referees who, whether we agree with them or not, are under enough pressure already.
A complicated issue as I've said but if it is to have a future the powers that be need to get it right.
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Post by Malcolm Tucker on Jan 18, 2018 10:16:33 GMT
Players shouldn’t be pressuring referees to go to the video ref, as the video official alerts the referee on the pitch if he has made an obvious error that needs overturning.
It’ll still be about opinions when it comes to penalties etc. as it is now, just another person’s. Any perceived errors in the VAR last night are amusing anyway because they happened to Chelsea.
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Post by Lobster on Jan 18, 2018 10:25:54 GMT
It's tough, but I'm leaning more on the "against" side of the argument. It looks great when it works well, like the Leicester goal on Tuesday, but when it doesn't it creates a real mess.
Football is a fast-paced game. Proponents of VAR point out how well it works in cricket and rugby, but they are stop-start sports. Pace and momentum are much more important in football.
It also leaves me a bit confused about what the role of on-field officials is. The Leicester goal for example, the linesman put his flag up. If the ref had seen it and blown his whistle before Iheanacho put the ball in the net, what happens then? Is it better for the ref to just ignore the linesman and play on, then review the replays later? If so, is there much point in having linesmen at all?
As you've suggested, I think the bigger problem is the culture of the game. Due to the influence of TV, we already talk far too much about refereeing and this filters through to players on the pitch. No other sport really has the ritual pressuring of refs like football does. It's something FIFA has allowed to fester for decades without addressing it, instead prioritising silly concepts like 'Golden Goal' extra time and bookings for taking your shirt off. Far from making their job easier, I can only see VAR putting refs under even more pressure and making football analysis even more tedious.
Perhaps we just need to accept that its only a game and mistakes happen?
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Jan 18, 2018 10:45:07 GMT
My major issue is the selection of matches to have VAR if this is going to be raitified and formalised for use in football. It should be used for every competition under the governing body's jurisdiction (be that the FA, UEFA as a whole or FIFA as a whole) or it shouldn't be used at all. Who decides that Chelsea v Norwich in the FA Cup is any more important than Barrow v Chester on the last day of the Conference season for example?
The fact that the current trial included the first leg of Man City v Bristol City at the Etihad but it won't be used for the return leg in Bristol is a joke.
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Post by Lobster on Jan 18, 2018 11:19:48 GMT
My major issue is the selection of matches to have VAR if this is going to be raitified and formalised for use in football. It should be used for every competition under the governing body's jurisdiction (be that the FA, UEFA as a whole or FIFA as a whole) or it shouldn't be used at all. Who decides that Chelsea v Norwich in the FA Cup is any more important than Barrow v Chester on the last day of the Conference season for example? The fact that the current trial included the first leg of Man City v Bristol City at the Etihad but it won't be used for the return leg in Bristol is a joke. This is a fair point. Really any changes made to the game should go right down to grassroots level.
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Post by eyeswideopen on Jan 18, 2018 12:07:26 GMT
My major issue is the selection of matches to have VAR if this is going to be raitified and formalised for use in football. It should be used for every competition under the governing body's jurisdiction (be that the FA, UEFA as a whole or FIFA as a whole) or it shouldn't be used at all. Who decides that Chelsea v Norwich in the FA Cup is any more important than Barrow v Chester on the last day of the Conference season for example? The fact that the current trial included the first leg of Man City v Bristol City at the Etihad but it won't be used for the return leg in Bristol is a joke. This is a fair point. Really any changes made to the game should go right down to grassroots level. I must have missed the goal-line technology being installed at the Deva?
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Post by Lobster on Jan 18, 2018 12:18:49 GMT
This is a fair point. Really any changes made to the game should go right down to grassroots level. I must have missed the goal-line technology being installed at the Deva? That's the point, basically. Hypothetically, imagine we played Manchester United at home and drew 0-0 but had a 'goal' disallowed even though replays showed it crossed the line. Then, in the replay at Old Trafford, we lost because of a goal awarded by goalline technology. I think goalline technology is a good thing and should be used as widely as possible, but that scenario does raise a debate and highlights the issue of having different procedures at different levels of football. VAR complicates the matter even further.
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Post by eyeswideopen on Jan 18, 2018 12:21:17 GMT
I must have missed the goal-line technology being installed at the Deva? That's the point, basically. Hypothetically, imagine we played Manchester United at home and drew 0-0 but had a 'goal' disallowed even though replays showed it crossed the line. Then, in the replay at Old Trafford, we lost because of a goal awarded by goalline technology. I think goalline technology is a good thing and should be used as widely as possible, but that scenario does raise a debate and highlights the issue of having different procedures at different levels of football. VAR complicates the matter even further. But where do you stop, you could say the same thing if we had it installed and had an exact same situation with Cammell Laird in an FA Cup tie.
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Post by Lobster on Jan 18, 2018 12:24:47 GMT
That's the point, basically. Hypothetically, imagine we played Manchester United at home and drew 0-0 but had a 'goal' disallowed even though replays showed it crossed the line. Then, in the replay at Old Trafford, we lost because of a goal awarded by goalline technology. I think goalline technology is a good thing and should be used as widely as possible, but that scenario does raise a debate and highlights the issue of having different procedures at different levels of football. VAR complicates the matter even further. But where do you stop, you could say the same thing if we had it installed and had an exact same situation with Cammell Laird in an FA Cup tie. So what I'm saying is that perhaps the best solution is not to have it at all, or at least to have guidelines on which competitions it can and can't be used in.
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Jan 18, 2018 12:43:46 GMT
That's the point, basically. Hypothetically, imagine we played Manchester United at home and drew 0-0 but had a 'goal' disallowed even though replays showed it crossed the line. Then, in the replay at Old Trafford, we lost because of a goal awarded by goalline technology. I think goalline technology is a good thing and should be used as widely as possible, but that scenario does raise a debate and highlights the issue of having different procedures at different levels of football. VAR complicates the matter even further. But where do you stop, you could say the same thing if we had it installed and had an exact same situation with Cammell Laird in an FA Cup tie. You're making my original point - either implement it in ALL competitions and at ALL levels or don't implement it at all.
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Post by Oaks Blue on Jan 18, 2018 12:46:34 GMT
It should be the same as cricket in the sense that the team captain is responsible for deciding if a review of VAR is wanted. The number of reviews should be limited per game, not per half.
This will ensure that the players are more responsible for deciding if to make the foul in the first place and this would ensure VAR use is kept to a minimum and the refs are not being badgered for every foul
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Post by iandychesterfc on Jan 18, 2018 12:56:36 GMT
I prefer the rugby model, ref is mic'd up and you hear the conversation.
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Post by canadianexile on Jan 18, 2018 14:11:21 GMT
My major issue is the selection of matches to have VAR if this is going to be raitified and formalised for use in football. It should be used for every competition under the governing body's jurisdiction (be that the FA, UEFA as a whole or FIFA as a whole) or it shouldn't be used at all. Who decides that Chelsea v Norwich in the FA Cup is any more important than Barrow v Chester on the last day of the Conference season for example? The fact that the current trial included the first leg of Man City v Bristol City at the Etihad but it won't be used for the return leg in Bristol is a joke. This is a fair point. Really any changes made to the game should go right down to grassroots level. Perhaps, but this is just a trial. You don't spend millions installing it at hundreds of grounds from day one, better to test it first, see what works well and what doesn't, before rolling something out nationally. I'm not sure how I feel about VAR in general but don't have a particular issue with it starting out as Premier League only, then perhaps extending down a few leagues as costs decrease. Who's paying for installing VAR systems at Bamber Bridge and Prescot Cables, then having hundreds of games watched remotely every Saturday? Lower level clubs are allowed to use artificial pitches if they decide it's to their benefit.
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Post by Paul Da Part on Jan 18, 2018 17:36:13 GMT
Fuck it off. There is absolutely no need for it. Football hasn’t needed it for 150-odd years, so why use it now? It shows how inept officials are these days. For starters, there’s 4 present during a match, surely one can call something to the best of their ability. Then you’ve got modern day players falling at every opportunity. You have to question their integrity too. It was farcical with Chelsea v Arsenal, and worse with Chelsea v Norwich yesterday. It’s not needed. Goal-line technology is something I can deal with, that has proven to work well. This lot though? Nah.
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Post by northender on Jan 18, 2018 18:13:51 GMT
A principle reason for manager, player and fan disquiet is whenever there is a feeling of having been cheated by what they think is a poor decision. Sometimes we feel that the ref' is deliberately biased but mainly it is when we feel we see complete incompetence [very often at our level I am afraid]. Goal-line tech where used takes all the heat out of what otherwise are issues that fester for years [eg twice in England vs Germany]
The abiding need is that key decisions [eg. goal-line, offside, penalty, serious foul play] are correctly and fairly called. Win or lose.
I am not concerned about 'breaking the game up' as this can be done quite easily by cynical managers and players [remember Barrow last year? how many times do added time subs rob a team of attacking momentum?].
Regardless of the stop-start nature of other sports-it works. Look how Hawkeye has cleared up the stupidity and time wasting in tennis. Rugby's 'try or no try'[both codes] not only works well it adds to the theatre of the game. The ability of the TV official to draw the ref's attention to off-the-ball incidents is also a plus.
It won't be a quick fix, there is lots to sort out, mistakes may be made and the trialling needs to be intensive but I don't honestly see what we have to lose by trying.
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Post by soulseal on Jan 19, 2018 7:21:24 GMT
Part of the argument for VAR is to resolve those 50:50 decisions that telly shows are wrong and the ref is lambasted. Managers of top clubs want those decisions that go against them to be right because of the cost, but aren’t bothered if they get the decision go for them. That’s football they say.
Chelsea were everything that appalls me of the top clubs. They are complaining that VAR was not used to correct a decision not to award a penalty against Willian, but don’t mention the TWO yellow cars Pedro and Morata received for diving to get penalties.
Those diving incidents are much much worse impacts to the game than a referee error on a tight call.
In my view the game should only go to penalties if you still have the same number of players on the pitch at full time. Chelsea players antics were despicable.
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Post by rcb on Jan 19, 2018 9:05:16 GMT
Fuck it off. There is absolutely no need for it. Football hasn’t needed it for 150-odd years, so why use it now? It shows how inept officials are these days. For starters, there’s 4 present during a match, surely one can call something to the best of their ability. Then you’ve got modern day players falling at every opportunity. You have to question their integrity too. It was farcical with Chelsea v Arsenal, and worse with Chelsea v Norwich yesterday. It’s not needed. Goal-line technology is something I can deal with, that has proven to work well. This lot though? Nah. Oh, if only that was true. 150 years ago the game was far more honest. The need to win, particularly where money is involved, has developed over the years to the point where winning at all costs now exists. Technology, along with changes to the Laws of the game, is a means of keeping pace with increased cheating in an attempt to get a more honest result. Like all sports sadly the cheats are winning. Anything which leads to a reduction in cheating must be a good thing. I am constantly amazed that pundits try and justify diving by claiming, under microscopic review, that “there was contact”. It’s a contact sport!! I’m sure referees hold back from honest decisions for fear of sanctions from the authorities, under pressure no doubt from the financial powerbrokers. Money and corruption go hand in hand. If people stop their sky subscriptions, as they are doing due to the diving etc., then the authorities act. Sponsors want maximum exposure for their products. Thierri Henry handballs France into the World Cup finals and yet nothing of any significance happens, but Cantona kicks a vile and offensive fan and he gets a nine month ban. Just look at the corruption involved in World Cup voting. From the top downwards the game now stinks!
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Post by bb93 on Jan 19, 2018 16:26:38 GMT
Against VAR for three main reasons
1) in all other sports VAR is used on conclusive decisions like Tennis, the ball is either in or it’s out, once you see the replay there’s no debating. Things like penalty decisions are contentious even after you’ve seen a replay.
2) Football is a much more continuous sport, if the Leicester goal was slightly further back on the pitch and players saw the offside flag and stopped would that be fair?
3) it takes so long, the Leicester one took 1 min and 9 seconds you could be having games having 10 minutes plus of stoppage time if there’s a couple of incidents.
That’s why I think things like goal line technology are good but not VAR.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 19, 2018 17:48:15 GMT
Against VAR for three main reasons 1) in all other sports VAR is used on conclusive decisions like Tennis, the ball is either in or it’s out, once you see the replay there’s no debating. Things like penalty decisions are contentious even after you’ve seen a replay. 2) Football is a much more continuous sport, if the Leicester goal was slightly further back on the pitch and players saw the offside flag and stopped would that be fair? 3) it takes so long, the Leicester one took 1 min and 9 seconds you could be having games having 10 minutes plus of stoppage time if there’s a couple of incidents. That’s why I think things like goal line technology are good but not VAR. The cynic in me thinks the TV guys might quite like the VAR system. A few 60-90 second breaks during the game might just allow them to slip in a few "words from our sponsors" and OUR game will end up like American Football Heaven forbid!
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Post by Si on Jan 19, 2018 19:53:46 GMT
I am in favour of using technology to help clear up some issues but only things that are simply a yes or no. Using it for penalty decisions is ridiculous as how often do you see 4 pundits in the studio disagreeing with a penalty decision even after the benefit of watching it again over and over against from various angles. Diving should simply face retrospective punishment as is currently does. VAR could be used in offside decisions, if a linesman isn’t completely sure then he should be able to request a video review and that can be cleared up in seconds. Part of the game is having a shite ref sometimes, that’s just football.
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Post by norwegianblue on Jan 20, 2018 13:52:45 GMT
Whatever happened to playing the game in a sporting manner and accepting and respecting the referees decision?
Oh yes, I know . . . . . . . £££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££££
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