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Post by Lobster on Aug 29, 2017 11:17:48 GMT
Looking at DC1 over the last couple of weeks, where the tone generally tends to be more positive and patient (or you might call it naive and easily satisfied, whichever you prefer), I can't help but note that the arguments for sticking with McCarthy even among his biggest supporters seem to be financially driven more than anything. There's a major fear that terminating his contract will simply cost the club too much money, and that for that reason alone we need to give him more time. It seems obvious that the decision to give McCarthy a two and a half year contract back in January has backfired, and it would be easy to criticise the club for offering it. However, as the thread on DC1 shows at the time, people were generally delighted. I know there's the argument that a lot of dissenting voices were banned from the old DC and there was perhaps a degree of fear about saying anything "negative", but it's quite surprising that not a single person at the time said "hmmm, two and a half years, are we sure about this?" So, what I thought might be interested to gauge is what supporters think our future attitude to manager contract extensions should be, and I'm going to present two scenarios to do this. I'm honestly not trying to have a go at anyone or make people change their minds, I'm just interested to know what people think is the better or less risky approach: Scenario A - Scenario A is basically what's really happened. We offered Macca a contract extension in January and since then it's all gone a bit crap. We're now in a pickle over whether to stick with a manager who nobody appears to have much confidence in, or replace him at significant cost to the club. Scenario B - Imagine that we didn't offer McCarthy a new contract, and he kept up the good pre-Christmas form, taking us to a finish just inside the playoffs. We don't go up, but it catches a lot of clubs' eyes that a rookie manager who took Chester to the playoffs on a shoestring is now out of contract. We lose McCarthy to Tranmere or Port Vale or someone for nothing, and he takes a few of our best players with him. These scenarios show that both offering and not offering contracts has risks, and the club could find itself heavily criticised in either case, so which is the route we should take in future? It seems like Scenario A should be the answer. If we have managers under decent contracts, it shows we have confidence in them, and that we have a long-term plan. It helps us to attract credible managers in the first place and stops bigger clubs poaching them. And with any manager you appoint, you should be doing so with a view to them being here at least a couple of seasons. The only advantage of Scenario B is that it's easier to solve the problem if things go wrong, but I'm starting to think that's such a major factor that it is actually the better option to give managers no more than a rolling one-year contract. It may mean we get great managers pinched from under our noses, but we'll just have to pick up the pieces and "go again" as they say. So, what do people think? Seeing as any manager is always just a few poor results away from serious pressure, should we be handing out 2-3 year contracts to ANY manager, or should we be appointed them on a rolling contract and accepting that we might lose a real gem for nothing? Or is a compromise somewhere between the two possible?
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Post by marner93 on Aug 29, 2017 11:37:48 GMT
1 year deal with a clause we have first rights to re-sign
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Post by Lobster on Aug 29, 2017 11:43:25 GMT
1 year deal with a clause we have first rights to re-sign Would any manager worth his salt agree to that though? Seems like wanting your bread buttered on both sides.
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Post by jb on Aug 29, 2017 11:45:03 GMT
When the extension to McCarthy was given it should have been 18 months. The club have made a rod for their backs giving him a two and a half year extension. After Burr's dismissal it was a rather strange move but there was no complaint given the decent run of form.
The board now have to act otherwise we will go down without any fight at all.
The FA Cup will soon be upon us and if we play like we did on Saturday we'd struggle to beat a 10th tier club. A change is needed otherwise the financial consequences of plummeting crowds and a decent cup run will be worse than cutting ties with McCarthy.
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Post by Al on Aug 29, 2017 11:46:01 GMT
With him being a very inexperienced manager? He can accept it or try his luck elsewhere.
An initial one year deal rolling contract based on various key performance related indicators being met.
Keeps him focussed on delivery, if he performs he's gets to carry on the job. If he doesn't we don't have to pay up double the amount we would do if he's tied into a long term deal.
Same goes for the players as well. 1yr deals with option to extend to another year based on appearances etc.
Call it Scenario C.
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Post by Al on Aug 29, 2017 11:47:23 GMT
1 year deal with a clause we have first rights to re-sign Would any manager worth his salt agree to that though? Seems like wanting your bread buttered on both sides. Askey is on that very same type of contract, so yes, managers worth their salt would sign it.
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Post by tarvinblue on Aug 29, 2017 11:55:40 GMT
Would any manager worth his salt agree to that though? Seems like wanting your bread buttered on both sides. Askey is on that very same type of contract, so yes, managers worth their salt would sign it. The irony is that we raced into offering this contract in fear of JM being poached by another club. How much we would wish that club to return now! JM has been a very lucky manager - he got the original job and the contract extension off the back of Ian Sharps's work and he's possibly been saved the sack already this season by the woodwork at Hartlepool and Aldershot. He's also at a football club that can't afford to press the trigger and has therefore been given ample opportunity to turn things around since last December. People might say he's been unfortunate with injuries, but for me he is in control of that through his approach to fitness and conditioning.
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Post by Harry Lime on Aug 29, 2017 11:58:34 GMT
Very good question.
I would basically be against anything that went past the end of the next season. However, it may not be the length of the contract that is the issue, but rather the cost of terminating that contract early.
You could offer a two year deal that has a termination clause with a maximum pay off of six months. That may give you the best of both.
Only offer a one year deal and maybe a better manager won't come. They may hold on for a better offer. Bigger club, more money, longer contract etc.
Two year deal allows you better chance of signing a few good players on two year deals too. That helps any income from selling them on. Risk again is you end up with a crock or poor player for two years, rather than one.
Twenty twenty hindsight vision isn't the same as foresight. The key issue is making the correct appointment in the first place. From memory all the shortlisted candidates last time would have been risky for one reason or another. We chose the man who had got really good results in a few games, and kept us up. He was the least risky at the time. Maybe the others all wanted two year deals, and a bigger budget to work with. To get the right candidate, first you have to attract them, then you have to go some way to providing them with what they want. Looking at the funded clubs in this league we may not be the attraction some of our supporters think we are. It maybe we always have to go for an unproven candidate. The more unproven, the shorter the contract should be.
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Post by dmcnally on Aug 29, 2017 13:12:29 GMT
With him being a very inexperienced manager? He can accept it or try his luck elsewhere. An initial one year deal rolling contract based on various key performance related indicators being met. Keeps him focussed on delivery, if he performs he's gets to carry on the job. If he doesn't we don't have to pay up double the amount we would do if he's tied into a long term deal. Same goes for the players as well. 1yr deals with option to extend to another year based on appearances etc. Call it Scenario C. Wrexham did the one year with a number of appearances activating an extension, and got themselves in a mess. They were putting players on the bench so that the extension wasn't triggered.
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Post by The Angry Agenda on Aug 29, 2017 13:40:29 GMT
Very good question. I would basically be against anything that went past the end of the next season. However, it may not be the length of the contract that is the issue, but rather the cost of terminating that contract early. You could offer a two year deal that has a termination clause with a maximum pay off of six months. That may give you the best of both. Only offer a one year deal and maybe a better manager won't come. They may hold on for a better offer. Bigger club, more money, longer contract etc. Two year deal allows you better chance of signing a few good players on two year deals too. That helps any income from selling them on. Risk again is you end up with a crock or poor player for two years, rather than one. Twenty twenty hindsight vision isn't the same as foresight. The key issue is making the correct appointment in the first place. From memory all the shortlisted candidates last time would have been risky for one reason or another. We chose the man who had got really good results in a few games, and kept us up. He was the least risky at the time. Maybe the others all wanted two year deals, and a bigger budget to work with. To get the right candidate, first you have to attract them, then you have to go some way to providing them with what they want. Looking at the funded clubs in this league we may not be the attraction some of our supporters think we are. It maybe we always have to go for an unproven candidate. The more unproven, the shorter the contract should be. Some excellent points made here by Harry. Spot on with what he says about having to attract the right candidate and then providing them with what they want. I'm sure we could offer certain managers the salary they'd be looking for, but then they'd still turn us down if after that we gave them a small budget to work with for example - that's the reality of it all, and where as a fan owned club our hands our somewhat tied - especially if we have to pay off a manager before looking for the next one.
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Post by g1 on Aug 29, 2017 13:42:36 GMT
One year deals are the only way forward then we could get rid of this Pollock easier
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Post by Rio Doherty on Aug 29, 2017 14:41:13 GMT
I would stick with the less risky option by appointing them on a one-year rolling contract.
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Post by paulie on Aug 29, 2017 16:22:03 GMT
I would stick with the less risky option by appointing them on a one-year rolling contract. Correct young man. A club like ours is not in the position to be handing out long contracts. Lessons should have been learnt after the Steve burr debacle, we are now in the same boat with Mcarthy.
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Post by Harry Lime on Aug 29, 2017 17:12:48 GMT
I would stick with the less risky option by appointing them on a one-year rolling contract. Correct young man. A club like ours is not in the position to be handing out long contracts. Lessons should have been learnt after the Steve burr debacle, we are now in the same boat with Mcarthy. You could offer a two year contract with a termination clause giving no more than 6 months maximum compensation. That would work out cheaper than a one year rolling contract. The devil is in the small print, not the headline. What we don't know is what the terms are in JMc's contract.
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Post by MPW on Aug 29, 2017 17:12:57 GMT
Always a difficult area and no one really complained that we extended his contract at the time because we'd already lost Sharps to Walsall.
Sometimes these things just don't work out, but I do wonder why so many managers fail so badly at Chester after having such good starts. The similarities of McCarthy, Curle & Williamson all starting their respective seasons so well and ending so badly are scary. Even Burr had a good full first season and struggled the next.
Macca will get these next away two games, I'm sure of it but we might have a strange scenario of grinding out results away and losing at home.
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Post by cfcforme on Aug 29, 2017 19:23:47 GMT
Correct young man. A club like ours is not in the position to be handing out long contracts. Lessons should have been learnt after the Steve burr debacle, we are now in the same boat with Mcarthy. You could offer a two year contract with a termination clause giving no more than 6 months maximum compensation. That would work out cheaper than a one year rolling contract. The devil is in the small print, not the headline. What we don't know is what the terms are in JMc's contract. Either this, or longer contacts with a "termination without compensation" clause whereby if the manager didn't average X No of points per game or is in the bottom 6 at any point in the season after 10 games, we can get rid of them for nothing. Any manager who backs himself would surely be ok with this?
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Post by soulseal on Aug 29, 2017 20:03:30 GMT
As a fan owned club I would support the ethos of scenario A every time. We all know the success of Ferguson at United, or Moyes at Everton was based on a long term view and I certainly wanted that for our club.
I have always argued for keeping Macca, he has as much opportunity to improve as the players and that could be considered for any young manager getting it right early on and getting a good contract offer.
However recently I have become concerned that he doesn't have what it takes, irrespective of time, and for the right reasons we have got this appointment wrong. I don't think players sit back on their laurels and long term contracts and don't perform (there will be the occasional exception to this of course) I do believe they are making a concerted effort in spite of the contract length.
So for me scenario A every time with the occasional hurt of paying off the manager if performances demand.
For the manager, once they lose the fans or the players there can be almost no way back. Particularly the fans. This is the case now I think, and not just the vocal lot on here who have always been against him. They are appearing to have got this right however.
For all our best endeavours we cannot make decisions without risk however, no matter the scenario as your two scenarios highlight. Football management, like politics, always ends in failure.
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Post by steveo1 on Aug 29, 2017 22:30:29 GMT
As mentioned above we should have given him 18 months max, he would have been delighted with that. Who gave him a 2 year plus deal? Did we not learn from Steve Burr? Surely we have a clause in the contract otherwise whoever agreed this deal needs telling.
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