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BREXIT
Nov 16, 2019 18:06:50 GMT
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Post by Al on Nov 16, 2019 18:06:50 GMT
Your point simply comes down to "we shouldn't expect any better than we have" (once you take away all your personal attacks that undermine your argument) It's a bit like saying we should never look to fix the pot holes in the car park because we can all park cars in there as it is. It is my personal opinion that austerity has had it's greatest success in convincing people that we don't deserve anything better than we have now. The fact of the matter is you tried to pull SB up on his figures, he has shown evidence for his figures and you had misunderstood his point. You were wrong, however in true Deva Chat style you have ignored that and rather than admit you were wrong you've changed your position to something else and posted some personal attacks one of which had a healthy dose of homophobia and has now been deleted. I am self employed and have to rent an office workspace on the Business Park to receive the connection I need to trade quick moving markets. Make you're arguments of Party Politics, however a universally accessible and superior speed internet can only be a good thing. If people don't need higher speed internet why does it exist and is so readily used and available in other countries. Homophobia? Where was that exactly? My post above remains unedited |
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BREXIT
Nov 16, 2019 18:41:23 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2019 18:41:23 GMT
It's been deleted not edited. I assume by one of the mods and quite rightly too.
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BREXIT
Nov 16, 2019 20:01:32 GMT
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Post by Al on Nov 16, 2019 20:01:32 GMT
It's been deleted not edited. I assume by one of the mods and quite rightly too. I think you need to check again. My post hasn't been edited by a mod and I most certainly havent said anything along the lines of what you are suggesting. |
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BREXIT
Nov 16, 2019 20:11:07 GMT
Post by Deleted on Nov 16, 2019 20:11:07 GMT
Your post from this morning is fine aside from it obviously containing an unnecessary personal attack rather than addressing the actual matter in which you were proved incorrect. The post I was drawing attention to was made yesterday by yourself and has been deleted either by you or a mod. It referred specifically to pornography and was entirely childish.
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BREXIT
Nov 17, 2019 8:11:51 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Nov 17, 2019 8:11:51 GMT
Funny how the billionaire-owned newspapers are so in favour of British people 'taking back control' from the EU but so against British people taking back control of essential services and utilities that their super-rich mates and shareholders scrounge massive profits out of.
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Post by Lobster on Nov 17, 2019 10:19:03 GMT
It is my personal opinion that austerity has had it's greatest success in convincing people that we don't deserve anything better than we have now. Absolutely. During the recession, I felt like screaming every time I heard someone pipe up with "you're lucky to have a job! " any time someone complained about work or threatened strike action. That kind of attitude allowed employers to take the piss and is why the likes of zero hour contracts and the gig economy have become the norm. The government love to tell us how much they've reduced unemployment since "the note", but are not so quick to acknowledge the rates at which child poverty is increasing - a sure indicator that many jobs are simply not paying enough for people to live off. This makes unemployment figures themselves all but meaningless. |
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BREXIT
Nov 17, 2019 13:49:52 GMT
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Post by Ian H Block on Nov 17, 2019 13:49:52 GMT
It is my personal opinion that austerity has had it's greatest success in convincing people that we don't deserve anything better than we have now. Absolutely. During the recession, I felt like screaming every time I heard someone pipe up with "you're lucky to have a job! " any time someone complained about work or threatened strike action. That kind of attitude allowed employers to take the piss and is why the likes of zero hour contracts and the gig economy have become the norm. The government love to tell us how much they've reduced unemployment since "the note", but are not so quick to acknowledge the rates at which child poverty is increasing - a sure indicator that many jobs are simply not paying enough for people to live off. This makes unemployment figures themselves all but meaningless. And yet some of the dullards on here and elsewhere continue to believe that their economic interests are the same as those of the billionaires that control much of their lives. All the evidence points to the fact that the Tories are working towards a high profit, llow age, ow skill, low productivity economic model that benefits no one except the top 1%. |
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BREXIT
Nov 18, 2019 11:54:39 GMT
Post by jb on Nov 18, 2019 11:54:39 GMT
I notice that Abbott and McCluskey are clashing over the issue of immigration post-Brexit. Something that was a major factor in respect of the Brexit vote.
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BREXIT
Nov 19, 2019 9:45:29 GMT
Post by Ian H Block on Nov 19, 2019 9:45:29 GMT
Interesting article by Peter Oborne, former Political Editor of the Daily Telegraph regarding the failure of journalists to question the lies they are being fed by the Tories. Democracy is in crisis and we are well on the way to becoming a one party dictatorship link |
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BREXIT
Nov 19, 2019 11:34:52 GMT
Post by Lobster on Nov 19, 2019 11:34:52 GMT
Imagine being an ordinary person genuinely arguing against working a four-day week and having free broadband. If this is you, the super-rich are peeing themselves laughing at how stupid you are. Plagarised from twitter. Essentially though, the NHS stats are woeful, those at the top jobs in the conservative party are awful, Boris with all his background the horrendous record of the last few years where nothing has been done and Brexit is a failure - i'm sure there's more to come too. Utterly, utterly the worst government ever known, SINCE RECORDS BEGAN! Imagine not being able to get a majority vs this lot. Worse still, imagine losing a GE entirely! Alyn and Deeside is safe as safe gets now at least but as for the rest of UK, if this government doesnt fall, despite how disgusting it is it'll be on the Labour leadership, no-one else. The problem with this argument is that although anyone with any sense realises this government is bad news, it doesn't mean people won't vote for them. Sadly, right-wing populism is on the rise around the world, and it's difficult to know how to combat that. In America, the Democrats got it wrong by choosing a right-of-centre leader who people didn't see as a suitable alternative to Trump. If they'd gone with Bernie Sanders it might have been a different story
Let's not forget that in Corbyn, we have a leader of the opposition who was appointed as a direct response to austerity, xenophobia and the all-round failures of a Conservative government moving increasingly to the right. I'm still not sure it's going to work, but would it make any difference if Labour had a more middle-ground leader? Not sure it would myself.
I just think we have to hope that in 10-15 years' time, we've evolved a bit and we look back on this period with a sense of "what was that all about?" One thing I'm pretty sure of is that history will judge the 2010s very unkindly!
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BREXIT
Nov 19, 2019 12:02:11 GMT
Post by iandychesterfc on Nov 19, 2019 12:02:11 GMT
I'm sorry but i have to disagree. The rise of populism is deflating and what you have is a government who have been woeful over the last 3 years and cannot answer any questions regards it's record because it is indefensible.
The reason people may continue to vote tory is due to a lack of a viable alternative. If Labour does not win this next election against the worst government on record (my hyperbole) then i'm sure it'll be all MSM fault, pure deflection. It will be the fault of the labour leadership, no-one else. They will be culpable in imposing us with 5 years of Boris.
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BREXIT
Nov 19, 2019 12:12:15 GMT
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Post by Ian H Block on Nov 19, 2019 12:12:15 GMT
I'm sorry but i have to disagree. The rise of populism is deflating and what you have is a government who have been woeful over the last 3 years and cannot answer any questions regards it's record because it is indefensible. The reason people may continue to vote tory is due to a lack of a viable alternative. If Labour does not win this next election against the worst government on record (my hyperbole) then i'm sure it'll be all MSM fault, pure deflection. It will be the fault of the labour leadership, no-one else. They will be culpable in imposing us with 5 years of Boris. Pure deflection, it’s the people who vote Tory who are culpable. |
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BREXIT
Nov 19, 2019 12:14:07 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Nov 19, 2019 12:14:07 GMT
I'm sorry but i have to disagree. The rise of populism is deflating and what you have is a government who have been woeful over the last 3 years and cannot answer any questions regards it's record because it is indefensible. The reason people may continue to vote tory is due to a lack of a viable alternative. If Labour does not win this next election against the worst government on record (my hyperbole) then i'm sure it'll be all MSM fault, pure deflection. It will be the fault of the labour leadership, no-one else. They will be culpable in imposing us with 5 years of Boris. Pure deflection, it’s the people who vote Tory who are culpable. Was about to say the same - working class Tory voters will be culpable for voting against their own interests. The LOTO cannot force people to vote for Labour at the end of the day. |
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Post by iandychesterfc on Nov 19, 2019 13:18:50 GMT
Why are they not voting labour though? enough of them did in 1997. The fact of the matter remains if people vote Tory (whatever their social class) it's because they don't see labour as a viable alternative.
It's simple as that. If they did, they would certainy not be voting for this current shower.
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BREXIT
Nov 19, 2019 14:56:47 GMT
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Post by Ian H Block on Nov 19, 2019 14:56:47 GMT
Why are they not voting labour though? enough of them did in 1997. The fact of the matter remains if people vote Tory (whatever their social class) it's because they don't see labour as a viable alternative. It's simple as that. If they did, they would certainy not be voting for this current shower. You cannot really compare 1997 with 2019 given that a large proportion of the electorate now view the world through the prism of Brexshit. |
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BREXIT
Nov 19, 2019 15:22:43 GMT
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Post by South Wirral Blue on Nov 19, 2019 15:22:43 GMT
Why are they not voting labour though? enough of them did in 1997. The fact of the matter remains if people vote Tory (whatever their social class) it's because they don't see labour as a viable alternative. It's simple as that. If they did, they would certainy not be voting for this current shower. You cannot really compare 1997 with 2019 given that a large proportion of the electorate now view the world through the prism of Brexshit. If anything, the Tories' disastrous handling of Brexit should be something the opposition are able to capitalise on. |
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Post by Ian H Block on Nov 19, 2019 16:01:51 GMT
You cannot really compare 1997 with 2019 given that a large proportion of the electorate now view the world through the prism of Brexshit. If anything, the Tories' disastrous handling of Brexit should be something the opposition are able to capitalise on. You might say disastrous but you wouldn’t hear that from 90% of the print and broadcast media. The Tory Press has shifted the blame and fixed the narrative that everyone else is to blame. It’s the classic Tory modus operandi: promise everything, deliver nothing, blame everybody else. |
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BREXIT
Nov 19, 2019 16:50:53 GMT
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Post by South Wirral Blue on Nov 19, 2019 16:50:53 GMT
If anything, the Tories' disastrous handling of Brexit should be something the opposition are able to capitalise on. You might say disastrous but you wouldn’t hear that from 90% of the print and broadcast media. The Tory Press has shifted the blame and fixed the narrative that everyone else is to blame. It’s the classic Tory modus operandi: promise everything, deliver nothing, blame everybody else. I think there's more going on here than media coverage though isn't there Ian. Yes, the Tories have tried to defend their abysmal record but in among all that, I've read/heard no end of criticisms of the mess they've created. The image of May & Johnson could hardly be any worse. I don't think Johnson advocates are the only ones looking to blame outside forces for their woes. |
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BREXIT
Nov 19, 2019 18:38:21 GMT
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Post by Ian H Block on Nov 19, 2019 18:38:21 GMT
You might say disastrous but you wouldn’t hear that from 90% of the print and broadcast media. The Tory Press has shifted the blame and fixed the narrative that everyone else is to blame. It’s the classic Tory modus operandi: promise everything, deliver nothing, blame everybody else. I think there's more going on here than media coverage though isn't there Ian. Yes, the Tories have tried to defend their abysmal record but in among all that, I've read/heard no end of criticisms of the mess they've created. The image of May & Johnson could hardly be any worse. I don't think Johnson advocates are the only ones looking to blame outside forces for their woes. I take it you haven’t read the Oborne piece then. Corbyn recognises that this is a struggle but unlke Tory Brexshit, Labour haven’t been telling everyone who’ll listen that this election is the easiest election in the world, that they hold all the aces and it’s all sunlit uplands from now on. |
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BREXIT
Nov 19, 2019 19:03:54 GMT
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Post by South Wirral Blue on Nov 19, 2019 19:03:54 GMT
I take it you haven’t read the Oborne piece then. Corbyn recognises that this is a struggle but unlke Tory Brexshit, Labour haven’t been telling everyone who’ll listen that this election is the easiest election in the world, that they hold all the aces and it’s all sunlit uplands from now on. Nobody has said Corbyn doesn't recognise it's a struggle, it's more that his Brexit message hasn't seemed to particularly resonate given the ongoing Tory debacle. We'll find out though next month. In terms of Tory propaganda, well, they're all at it. There's an election on, it's to be expected. |
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BREXIT
Nov 19, 2019 22:18:04 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Nov 19, 2019 22:18:04 GMT
Imagine not answering the question “can you be trusted?” whilst bringing every single topic onto Brexit to audible groans...
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BREXIT
Nov 19, 2019 22:20:18 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Nov 19, 2019 22:20:18 GMT
Boris Johnson: "The institution of the monarchy is beyond reproach."
In other words, Prince Andrew can do whatever he wants to whover he wants.
Jeremy Corbyn: "I think we should discuss the victims... No one is above the law."
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BREXIT
Nov 19, 2019 22:37:26 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2019 22:37:26 GMT
and mr johnson replied the law must certainly take its course.its quite easy to give the whole story .but you have got to want to do it
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Post by Lobster on Nov 19, 2019 22:43:26 GMT
The rebranding of the Conservative Party Press Office Twitter account as 'factcheckUK' during tonight's debate is proper 1984 stuff. Shows they think absolutely nothing of misleading the public.
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BREXIT
Nov 19, 2019 22:54:06 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Nov 19, 2019 22:54:06 GMT
The rebranding of the Conservative Party Press Office Twitter account as 'factcheckUK' during tonight's debate is proper 1984 stuff. Shows they think absolutely nothing of misleading the public. I’d like to see what the Electoral Commission have to say about that. |
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BREXIT
Nov 19, 2019 23:00:54 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2019 23:00:54 GMT
you don't do a bad job with misleading statements yourself
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BREXIT
Nov 19, 2019 23:04:54 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Nov 19, 2019 23:04:54 GMT
Two main points for me -
- Corbyn hammering Johnson with the surprise unveiling of the redacted document from the Government on the NHS in trade talks with the US - Johnson’s jaw hit the floor and he didn’t know what to do;
- the heckling and booing of climate change and poor people from the audience and Corbyn’s obvious shock to it; demonstrates that unfortunately there are heartless bastards in this country who love to feel superior over others so they boo poor people drowning.
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Post by Deva Chanter on Nov 19, 2019 23:14:40 GMT
and mr johnson replied the law must certainly take its course.its quite easy to give the whole story .but you have got to want to do it "Beyond reproach" means perfect. Sounded like a pretty blatant attempt to defend noncery to me. |
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BREXIT
Nov 20, 2019 6:44:30 GMT
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Post by Firestick Frank on Nov 20, 2019 6:44:30 GMT
BBC Chiefs say it’s ‘wrong to expose Boris Johnson’s lies because it undermines trust in democracy’
Errm, wut?
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BREXIT
Nov 20, 2019 7:04:36 GMT
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Post by South Wirral Blue on Nov 20, 2019 7:04:36 GMT
Neither man crashed last night but neither did they do anything to significantly improve their already poor popularity.
On Brexit, Johnson remains wedded to this awful deal that I don't think many particularly want. Corbyn continues to play a slippery hand and his comical refusal to answer a simple question reminded me the notorious Paxman/Howard interview in 1997.
Two very poor candidates, but most of us knew that already.
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