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Post by Rio Doherty on Jun 18, 2018 20:37:29 GMT
We got over the line in the end, but it was a dominant performance as we more than deserved to win. The referee was an absolute farce in my opinion as that should not have been a penalty for Tunisia. We should’ve been cruising at half time due to us having a lot of opportunities, but we just couldn’t put the ball in when it counted which is a problem of ours. I was starting to get anxious towards the end, but you couldn’t say our late winner was undeserved. In the end though this is a great, much-needed win for us. Unless something major happens, we should get the three points against Panama which will set us to up for a grandstand finish against Belgium. I’m sure that will be an eventful game! 🏴
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Post by Derry Blue on Jun 18, 2018 20:44:34 GMT
We got over the line in the end, but it was a dominant performance as we more than deserved to win. The referee was an absolute farce in my opinion as that should not have been a penalty for Tunisia. We should’ve been cruising at half time due to us having a lot of opportunities, but we just couldn’t put the ball in when it counted which is a problem of ours. I was starting to get anxious towards the end, but you couldn’t say our late winner was undeserved. In the end though this is a great, much-needed win for us. Unless something major happens, we should get the three points against Panama which will set us to up for a grandstand finish against Belgium. I’m sure that will be an eventful game! 🏴 I admire your optimism Rio, but this team can not guarantee to beat Panama, especially if we play Sterling. I wonder why the manager continues to play someone who's clearly suffering from an injury - I would have everyone realised that Ali had a problem.
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Post by Lobster on Jun 18, 2018 20:47:57 GMT
First 20 minutes were impressive but no surprise the anti English brigade gave the weaker team a chance which knocked England’s confidence. By far superior and deserved the win. VAR was an absolute farce and we were denied 2 stone wall penalties. Loftus-Cheek looks a right player. The second so called stonewall penalty saw Stones push a Tunisian in the back same time as Kane was wrestled down. Ref could have given either, but opted for neither. I agree that VAR is currently a failure. I’ve always advocated a defender on the far post for corners, in which case Kane’s winner would not have gone in. Two defenders on the line, and one bafflingly in the middle of the goal. Should have been on that far post. England were superior throughout and deserved to win, but the manner of the win ended up as a lucky win. Final group game and goal difference to determine whether England or Belgium top the group. Yep, none of the pundits seemed to notice that for the first penalty shout, Kane was holding their man as well. It was no more an England penalty than it was a Tunisian free kick, and therefore not a clear and obvious error. A good result all things considered, but god England are frustrating. How many times do we see them start like an express train, but waste chances, concede a soft goal and then look short of ideas? We put it down to bad luck but you could argue it’s naive to start off all guns blazing like that when a match lasts 90 minutes. When the equaliser went in, the pace dropped, Tunisia sat back and that infernal band tootled out the same tune for about 25 minutes, killing the atmosphere. Ref was generally poor but I wouldn’t moan too much about the penalties given and not given. I just thought he was a little weak with the amount of niggly stoppages and time wasting Tunisia kept forcing. Thought Henderson and Maguire were the best players, and Rashford and Loftus-Cheek did well when they came on. Don’t rate Ashley Young and Sterling always seems to flatter to deceive for England - felt like the move kept breaking down every time he got the ball. Given how defensive and well-organised Tunisia were, it was weird that they switched off for two corners and left Kane unmarked. Just shows how ridiculous it was having him taking corners in 2016.
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Post by Jack on Jun 18, 2018 21:00:06 GMT
I think you'd have to call it a positive performance tonight.
It's no exaggeration to say we could have been 5-0 up with even an ounce of composure at half time - I don't know how many times we've seen England create so much on the world stage in recent years.
Ref was a joke, too. Tunisia were no great shakes by any means but they did make life difficult in the second half. Wins like that are fantastic for morale and I can't see how we won't beat Panama comfortably, so it's a good start.
France played considerably poorer than we did tonight in their opener, but nobody is writing them off and rightfully so. Same applies to us.
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Post by South Wirral Blue on Jun 18, 2018 21:06:16 GMT
We always find a way to make hard work of it in these tournaments and we did again tonight. 1 up, in charge and looking like doubling our lead. Soon after it was 1-1 in the cheapest of circumstances and we suddenly looked devoid of any creativity.
It had echoes of Iceland I thought second half, plenty of the ball but a total failure to manufacture meaningful chances - until the death.
Also, I'm not entirely sure what the point of VAR is anymore. Things missed tonight were beyond blatant.
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Post by Rio Doherty on Jun 18, 2018 21:12:48 GMT
We got over the line in the end, but it was a dominant performance as we more than deserved to win. The referee was an absolute farce in my opinion as that should not have been a penalty for Tunisia. We should’ve been cruising at half time due to us having a lot of opportunities, but we just couldn’t put the ball in when it counted which is a problem of ours. I was starting to get anxious towards the end, but you couldn’t say our late winner was undeserved. In the end though this is a great, much-needed win for us. Unless something major happens, we should get the three points against Panama which will set us to up for a grandstand finish against Belgium. I’m sure that will be an eventful game! 🏴 I admire your optimism Rio, but this team can not guarantee to beat Panama, especially if we play Sterling. I wonder why the manager continues to play someone who's clearly suffering from an injury - I would have everyone realised that Ali had a problem. I certainly hope that we don’t play Sterling too.
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Post by Anders on Jun 18, 2018 21:25:40 GMT
First time in while we’ve had someone in Kane who you feel confident will take his chances when they fall his way. Can’t say I feel the same about Sterling and Lingard, no matter how well they might do I just can’t shake the overriding feeling that they’re too prone to fluffing chances. If anything Sterling is getting worse in that respect.
Thought Trippier was excellent, definitely our best performer, just had one pretty naff free kick to his name really. Henderson did quite well but was a bit guilty of dawdling on the ball in the second half.
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Post by agl on Jun 18, 2018 21:36:18 GMT
Can anyone explain why Ashley Young, a proven failure at international level and right footed, is playing left back for England. Baffling. Inswinging corners, as in England’s opening goal. Nothing baffling about it. Nope, sorry still baffled. You will have to offer up more than inswinging corners. He's a total liability.
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Post by Wortleyblue on Jun 18, 2018 21:43:49 GMT
3 points yes but encouraging for future games no early plane home again
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Post by agl on Jun 18, 2018 21:43:52 GMT
We are probably guilty of watching England with a more critical eye. Brazil, France and Germany have all arguably put in worse performances and we did look dangerous in the first half. Second half was the usual torture, watching the clock tick down and the pace of England's approach play get slower. Tunisia were woeful but hard to break down. Thank God for the only real quality player we have - two chances, two goals. Kane gives us half a chance but we have too many ordinary players. Actually think if we do get out of the group we might do better as more adventurous teams will leave a bit more space in behind.
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Post by Derry Blue on Jun 18, 2018 22:01:01 GMT
We are probably guilty of watching England with a more critical eye. Brazil, France and Germany have all arguably put in worse performances and we did look dangerous in the first half. Second half was the usual torture, watching the clock tick down and the pace of England's approach play get slower. Tunisia were woeful but hard to break down. Thank God for the only real quality player we have - two chances, two goals. Kane gives us half a chance but we have too many ordinary players. Actually think if we do get out of the group we might do better as more adventurous teams will leave a bit more space in behind. Yes, Brazil, France and Germany have arguably put in worse performances, but we know they'll probably come good. England -not at all sure of that. Worrying how their confidence seemed to evaporate. I agree with your "ordinary players" comment. How may of that team tonight would get into the aforementioned teams?
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Jun 19, 2018 6:26:00 GMT
Thought we were excellent, especially in the first 20 minutes, and thoroughly deserved the win no matter how we actually got it.
The two question marks I had over team selection before kick-off were for Maguire and Henderson - I'd have preferred Cahill and Dier - but both played very well (even if the latter could've done more to advance with the ball in the second half). Perhaps Cahill's experience and Dier's style of defensive midfield play will be more valued in the latter stages of the competition against better opposition. I'm glad Young was given the nod on the left as he has had a great season for his club whilst Rose hasn't really been available for Spurs. The rest of the side picked itself on paper but I'd agree that Sterling does seem to get worse and worse each time he dons the Three Lions. Rashford was superb when he came on and should be in line to start on Sunday. Also felt Loftus-Cheek offered a lot going forward - the substitutes did the job of working the Tunisian defence.
You can argue that we shouldn't have gone full pelt for the first 20 minutes as it looked like that had an impact on our second half performance, which looked lethargic and pedestrian, but had we put those chances away we would have deservedly gone in at the break at least three goals up. I'm glad we overcame Tunisia's anti-football (rugby in some instances at corners...) tactics to sneak the win at the end - VAR only seems to be in use for 31 other teams and the officials were a disgrace.
Great start, on to Panama on Sunday and another convincing win.
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Post by Lobster on Jun 19, 2018 6:44:09 GMT
I would say Portugal won Euro 2016 with pretty ordinary players - obviously with one exception, but he had a quiet tournament. It was mainly down to organisation and hard work that they won it.
I don't think anyone should be expecting England to win the World Cup. As people correctly point out, there are too many ordinary players, so we should expect fairly ordinary performances and results. What we do want to see is improvement, and I think we saw that last night. There have been far too many hard luck stories over the years, and it's rare to see an England game where things didn't go out way, but we still got a win.
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Post by Lobster on Jun 19, 2018 6:59:44 GMT
My view on the penalty incidents:
Tunisia penalty - soft and the Tunisian played for it, but not great defending from Walker who shouldn't have been blocking the player off like that. Not an obvious refereeing error
England penalty shout #1 - ugly defending by the Tunisian, but if you look at the replay, Kane clearly has his arm around the defender's back as well. Both players are fouling each other, so the best thing to do is let it go. Again, not a refereeing error.
England penalty shout #2 - that probably was a pen. Kane and Maguire both being wrestled
Basically all three fall into the category of "seen them given", and for that reason it's probably better to side with the ref's original decision than to get VAR involved. Part of the problem with VAR is that the game, supporters and even pundits are too immature and one-eyed to accept it. Ex-strikers like Shearer and Lineker seem to forget that attackers do as much pushing and shoving as defenders do at set-pieces. If you're a defender and the striker has his arms around you, you have no option but to give as good as you're getting.
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Post by rcb on Jun 19, 2018 8:02:19 GMT
My view on the penalty incidents: Tunisia penalty - soft and the Tunisian played for it, but not great defending from Walker who shouldn't have been blocking the player off like that. Not an obvious refereeing error England penalty shout #1 - ugly defending by the Tunisian, but if you look at the replay, Kane clearly has his arm around the defender's back as well. Both players are fouling each other, so the best thing to do is let it go. Again, not a refereeing error. England penalty shout #2 - that probably was a pen. Kane and Maguire both being wrestled
Basically all three fall into the category of "seen them given", and for that reason it's probably better to side with the ref's original decision than to get VAR involved. Part of the problem with VAR is that the game, supporters and even pundits are too immature and one-eyed to accept it. Ex-strikers like Shearer and Lineker seem to forget that attackers do as much pushing and shoving as defenders do at set-pieces. If you're a defender and the striker has his arms around you, you have no option but to give as good as you're getting. Look again - Tunisian defender pushed in the back at the same time as the wrestling.
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Post by Lobster on Jun 19, 2018 8:19:39 GMT
My view on the penalty incidents: Tunisia penalty - soft and the Tunisian played for it, but not great defending from Walker who shouldn't have been blocking the player off like that. Not an obvious refereeing error England penalty shout #1 - ugly defending by the Tunisian, but if you look at the replay, Kane clearly has his arm around the defender's back as well. Both players are fouling each other, so the best thing to do is let it go. Again, not a refereeing error. England penalty shout #2 - that probably was a pen. Kane and Maguire both being wrestled
Basically all three fall into the category of "seen them given", and for that reason it's probably better to side with the ref's original decision than to get VAR involved. Part of the problem with VAR is that the game, supporters and even pundits are too immature and one-eyed to accept it. Ex-strikers like Shearer and Lineker seem to forget that attackers do as much pushing and shoving as defenders do at set-pieces. If you're a defender and the striker has his arms around you, you have no option but to give as good as you're getting. Look again - Tunisian defender pushed in the back at the same time as the wrestling. Yep, any kind of shirt-pulling and wrestling is usually a two-way thing. It's very hard to say a penalty is the "correct" decision in such cases.
I'm not a fan of VAR, but VAR wasn't the problem yesterday in my opinion. The pundits kept going on about "consistency", but it's not VAR's job to apply consistency. It's there to assess incidents on an individual process and alert the referee if he makes a clear mistake. It's down to the ref on the pitch to apply consistency and he was pretty poor in that respect - he didn't clamp down on the niggly fouls and timewasting from Tunisia. There was one point where he stopped the game because a Tunisian player had the ball kicked at his body. I mean, come on! Refs should know by now when players are trying it on.
If VAR is to be used, it should be used as little as possible. I don't think the World Cup is the place to be experimenting with it at this early stage, and I don't want to see it used to micro-analyse little shoves and shirt-pulls, as by and large you can let them go or allow the ref to use his judgment. The penalty incident in the Sweden v South Korea game earlier yesterday was an example of where it can work well. You could see how the ref missed that from his position, but the reply clearly showed it to be a foul.
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Post by Imperial on Jun 19, 2018 8:31:01 GMT
I can’t believe how negative some of you are being, that was only the third time England have ever won their opening match & we absolutely battered Tunisia.
Yeah our finishing was somewhat lacking but we could have been 5-0 up at half time. We lost some momentum after their penalty which was soft but fair.
Alli & Sterling both had poor games but their respective replacements played well & Southgate made positive changes although they could have been made earlier.
Overall I thought we were decent.
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Post by rcb on Jun 19, 2018 9:59:19 GMT
I can’t believe how negative some of you are being, that was only the third time England have ever won their opening match & we absolutely battered Tunisia. Yeah our finishing was somewhat lacking but we could have been 5-0 up at half time. We lost some momentum after their penalty which was soft but fair. Alli & Sterling both had poor games but their respective replacements played well & Southgate made positive changes although they could have been made earlier. Overall I thought we were decent. Many interesting and generally fair comments in my opinion. Haven’t read anything negative. No point in glamourising mediocrity by blind bias. England had a flying start and then faded, ultimately labouring to a win courtesy of appalling Tunisian defending. Several “star” players were too full of their own importance and let the work ethic and teamwork down. Sterling’s attempted left foot shot instead of a right foot tap in for example. Absolutely appalling central defending and a needless elbow by Walker gave away the penalty. Premiership arrogance no doubt. He even admitted he would have “got away with it” in the premiership, so clearly not an accident. Brilliant result for Southgate who will have learnt bucketloads from this game. Why perceive the truth as a negative?
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Post by Imperial on Jun 19, 2018 10:20:05 GMT
I can’t believe how negative some of you are being, that was only the third time England have ever won their opening match & we absolutely battered Tunisia. Yeah our finishing was somewhat lacking but we could have been 5-0 up at half time. We lost some momentum after their penalty which was soft but fair. Alli & Sterling both had poor games but their respective replacements played well & Southgate made positive changes although they could have been made earlier. Overall I thought we were decent. Many interesting and generally fair comments in my opinion. Haven’t read anything negative. No point in glamourising mediocrity by blind bias. England had a flying start and then faded, ultimately labouring to a win courtesy of appalling Tunisian defending. Several “star” players were too full of their own importance and let the work ethic and teamwork down. Sterling’s attempted left foot shot instead of a right foot tap in for example. Absolutely appalling central defending and a needless elbow by Walker gave away the penalty. Premiership arrogance no doubt. He even admitted he would have “got away with it” in the premiership, so clearly not an accident. Brilliant result for Southgate who will have learnt bucketloads from this game. Why perceive the truth as a negative? It’s not all the truth though, much of it is your opinion which is fine of course. But I think it’s a harsh of assessment of a reasonably good performance by England.
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Post by Si on Jun 19, 2018 11:46:57 GMT
In general it was a decent performance by England. We came out of the traps fast and only a combination of sloppy finishing and the referee gifting them a penalty let Tunisia back in it. That gave them something to cling to, which they very nearly did as England got more frustrated as the game went on. But you have to credit Southgate with recognising what was needed - he brought Rashford and Loftus Cheek to add more pace and drive, pushed the defensive line higher up to squeeze the play and eventually the pressure told. By no means a perfect performance, but plenty of positives to take, and you have to remember that a lot of the smaller nations have made life difficult for the more fancied teams so England are by no means alone in struggling to break down a very defensive team. If VAR had been used properly then we would have had two penalties, which would have added some gloss to the scoreline.
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Post by rcb on Jun 19, 2018 12:09:33 GMT
In general it was a decent performance by England. We came out of the traps fast and only a combination of sloppy finishing and the referee gifting them a penalty let Tunisia back in it. That gave them something to cling to, which they very nearly did as England got more frustrated as the game went on. But you have to credit Southgate with recognising what was needed - he brought Rashford and Loftus Cheek to add more pace and drive, pushed the defensive line higher up to squeeze the play and eventually the pressure told. By no means a perfect performance, but plenty of positives to take, and you have to remember that a lot of the smaller nations have made life difficult for the more fancied teams so England are by no means alone in struggling to break down a very defensive team. If VAR had been used properly then we would have had two penalties, which would have added some gloss to the scoreline. What Walker did, right in front of the referee, was both blatant and stupid, so hardly a gift. In my opinion, and Lobster’s too, VAR was used properly in both occasions. You have to consider all the simultaneous incidents as a referee, not just the ones that favour England.
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Post by Derry Blue on Jun 19, 2018 12:12:48 GMT
In general it was a decent performance by England. We came out of the traps fast and only a combination of sloppy finishing and the referee gifting them a penalty let Tunisia back in it. That gave them something to cling to, which they very nearly did as England got more frustrated as the game went on. But you have to credit Southgate with recognising what was needed - he brought Rashford and Loftus Cheek to add more pace and drive, pushed the defensive line higher up to squeeze the play and eventually the pressure told. By no means a perfect performance, but plenty of positives to take, and you have to remember that a lot of the smaller nations have made life difficult for the more fancied teams so England are by no means alone in struggling to break down a very defensive team. If VAR had been used properly then we would have had two penalties, which would have added some gloss to the scoreline. What Walker did, right in front of the referee, was both blatant and stupid, so hardly a gift. In my opinion, and Lobster’s too, VAR was used properly in both occasions. You have to consider all the simultaneous incidents as a referee, not just the ones that favour England. Agree. Good post.
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Post by South Wirral Blue on Jun 19, 2018 13:14:50 GMT
First red card of the tournament goes to a Colombian player - they're currently 1-1 with Japan.
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Post by Si on Jun 19, 2018 13:38:32 GMT
In general it was a decent performance by England. We came out of the traps fast and only a combination of sloppy finishing and the referee gifting them a penalty let Tunisia back in it. That gave them something to cling to, which they very nearly did as England got more frustrated as the game went on. But you have to credit Southgate with recognising what was needed - he brought Rashford and Loftus Cheek to add more pace and drive, pushed the defensive line higher up to squeeze the play and eventually the pressure told. By no means a perfect performance, but plenty of positives to take, and you have to remember that a lot of the smaller nations have made life difficult for the more fancied teams so England are by no means alone in struggling to break down a very defensive team. If VAR had been used properly then we would have had two penalties, which would have added some gloss to the scoreline. What Walker did, right in front of the referee, was both blatant and stupid, so hardly a gift. In my opinion, and Lobster’s too, VAR was used properly in both occasions. You have to consider all the simultaneous incidents as a referee, not just the ones that favour England. Looks like we'll have to agree to disagree on that one. There was certainly no intention from Walker, at worst it was clumsy due to getting muddled up positionally. I don't understand how anyone can see the replays of the Kane incidents and conclude that they shouldn't have been penalties, the 2nd one in particular was a stonewaller, but we all see it differently I guess. Totally understand that the referee has to consider all the simultaneous incidents, but I personally felt that it was poor officiating, and I'd say the same if it was someone other than England. The challenge with VAR in football is that there's still a lot of incidents that can be slowed down and analysed over and over again and people will still have different opinions, whereas in sports like tennis and cricket it clears things up nicely like whether the ball is out or whether there was contact on the bat etc. How many times do you see pundits in the studio disagreeing, having slowed it down and viewed it from many different angles - it just goes to show that there is a place for VAR in football but I don't think its the finished article and perhaps trialing it on the world biggest stage isn't the wisest of ideas. I'm all in favour of it being used to reduce the amount of goals that are clearly offside and help referees identify diving, but in terms of judging what is and isn't a penalty then there's still a lot of refining to do.
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Post by South Wirral Blue on Jun 19, 2018 13:45:27 GMT
First red card of the tournament goes to a Colombian player - they're currently 1-1 with Japan. 2-1 to Japan now, wouldn't mind getting this Japan side in the last 16...
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Post by chesterken on Jun 19, 2018 13:48:29 GMT
It’s just a fest of cheating and diving, awful.
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Post by Lobster on Jun 19, 2018 13:50:03 GMT
I think it's a can of worms. Personally, yes, I think it was a penalty, but can you really say there is no argument at all that it wasn't a penalty? If not, you have to side with the ref's decision. He's in communication with the players and in theory it's up to him how he wants to officiate the game, whether he wants to be judicious or let things go. In the end, he did a bit of both, and that's why he should be criticised rather than the VAR team. He wasn't consistent.
There were a couple of small pushes and shirt-pulling instances in the goal Japan just scored against Colombia. It's a fine line before every single goal decision could be contested and that's not the way we want it to go.
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Post by agl on Jun 19, 2018 14:33:55 GMT
It’s just a fest of cheating and diving, awful. Lot better than previous tournaments in that respect. Enjoying it so far.
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Post by Lobster on Jun 19, 2018 14:52:27 GMT
I’m enjoying it. One or two duff games, but generally the football has been good, refs have been sensible, and there have been a couple of upsets.
Surprisingly impressed by Japan this afternoon. Yes, they played 10 men for the whole game, but if it hadn’t been a red card they would have been 1-0 up 11 v 11, so it evens itself out.
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Post by South Wirral Blue on Jun 19, 2018 15:45:43 GMT
Senegal 1 up against Poland after a wicked deflection off the defender. This group is wide open.
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