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Post by jimianto on Dec 7, 2020 12:18:26 GMT
Banning orders for what exactly ? Booing something you don’t agree with - is this really the road we are going down because it’s a dangerous one if we are, because I wasn’t aware that booing something was actually a crime ? Who doesn't agree that black lives matter? The only people who don't agree with that statement are racists. Even more so if they not only think that black lives don't matter, but they would actively choose to boo such a statement. And racism is a banning order offence so its pretty clear cut as far as I'm concerned. If your view on this is any different to your attitude toward, for example, people booing on remembrance weekend, or Holocaust Memorial day, then you ought to have a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself why that might be. Holocaust Memorial Day and Remembrance Sunday are not Marxist political movements. Keep BLM out of sport. There was nothing wrong with the much more positive Kick It Out movement.
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Post by brianfelshaw on Dec 7, 2020 12:19:07 GMT
It also happened at Colchester over the weekend, with their owner stating that if any fan wants to boo then they’re not welcome at the club anymore but are entitled to a refund. Personally I think this is exactly what is needed and shows a belief from a club owner that no matter who or how many take issue with standing against discrimination they’re not welcome at his club
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Post by Si on Dec 7, 2020 12:22:55 GMT
Can't you two just block each other?! Why do you always come to his rescue? Serious question... If its not a locked thread its always an attack on the person raising the issue. Has he got nude pictures of you or something? Don't be silly. I think you are overreacting to a lot of his posts to be honest and you seem to enjoy chasing him around the board picking his posts apart, it's really strange behaviour when you could choose to just ignore someone you have an obvious clash of personality with and save yourself the time and bother. A few weeks ago this was all discussed, and for what it's worth I think Frank has taken some of that on board and the recent match threads have been much better and I'm not seeing so many political opinions taking over football threads, so perhaps he took on board the forum guidelines. I seem to recall he tried to pm you to call a truce too. Time to be the bigger man and just rise above it if bothers you that much, and if me and the mods see the same sort of issues from a few weeks ago resurfacing then we'll deal with it then, but there's been no real problems of late in my opinion. As I've said many times before, you and Nathan have been on Deva Chat for donkeys years so you know the score by now, he can be a bit close to the bone at times but that's just him, there's probably loads of posters on forums similar to him and differences of opinions are fine. He was a moderator on here and I took the decision to take him off the moderating team because his political postings at the time were instigating heated debating which were spilling over into abuse and it goes against what a moderator should be doing, but yeah he must have some dick pics of me right
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Post by Lobster on Dec 7, 2020 12:36:32 GMT
You're another one who thinks I'm in the wrong. Why don't you block me if its so tedious? You occasionally post some interesting views, which often challenge my own. So, I choose not to block you. But you let yourself down with the childish, narcissistic back and forth stuff with Frank. You are equally to blame. Both Frank and Oaks Blue are generally good contributors to the forum and are passionate supporters. I'd hate to stop either of them posting. It's just a shame one has a compulsion to stir the pot, and the other can't just move away from the pot.
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Post by Oaks Blue on Dec 7, 2020 12:51:05 GMT
You occasionally post some interesting views, which often challenge my own. So, I choose not to block you. But you let yourself down with the childish, narcissistic back and forth stuff with Frank. You are equally to blame. Both Frank and Oaks Blue are generally good contributors to the forum and are passionate supporters. I'd hate to stop either of them posting. It's just a shame one has a compulsion to stir the pot, and the other can't just move away from the pot. Whats his warning percentage? Must be more than 75% by now considering the new forum guidelines where it was stated would be acted on if the individual didn't change their behaviour. Or are his wind up tactics accepted by the admin team to be just cute little mancotisms and therefore tolerated? I will stop being attracted to the 'pot' when the pot is removed 👍
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Post by Deva Chanter on Dec 7, 2020 13:11:56 GMT
Who doesn't agree that black lives matter? The only people who don't agree with that statement are racists. Even more so if they not only think that black lives don't matter, but they would actively choose to boo such a statement. And racism is a banning order offence so its pretty clear cut as far as I'm concerned. If your view on this is any different to your attitude toward, for example, people booing on remembrance weekend, or Holocaust Memorial day, then you ought to have a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself why that might be. Holocaust Memorial Day and Remembrance Sunday are not Marxist political movements. Keep BLM out of sport. There was nothing wrong with the much more positive Kick It Out movement. I see we've reached the point whereby we will spout total nonsense that comes out of Donald Trump's mouth in order to diminish the fight for racial equality. Shameful behaviour.
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Post by Firestick Frank on Dec 7, 2020 13:19:34 GMT
Who doesn't agree that black lives matter? The only people who don't agree with that statement are racists. Even more so if they not only think that black lives don't matter, but they would actively choose to boo such a statement. And racism is a banning order offence so its pretty clear cut as far as I'm concerned. If your view on this is any different to your attitude toward, for example, people booing on remembrance weekend, or Holocaust Memorial day, then you ought to have a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself why that might be. Holocaust Memorial Day and Remembrance Sunday are not Marxist political movements. Keep BLM out of sport. There was nothing wrong with the much more positive Kick It Out movement. Your final sentence is 100% correct and I hope the Kick It Out organisation gets a kick up the backside to be more proactive now because of this. However the weird “Marxist” conspiracy theory stuff belongs with the crazed tin hat crackpots that it came from.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 14:11:08 GMT
How about until ethnic minorities are treated equally? Seems fair to me. What's your experience of this? How do you define what is unfair? What's wrong with the protection laws in the UK re: minorities? You seem to get easily offended about something which probably doesn't affect you much and also you probably know very little about. I don't really get this attitude "something which probably doesn't affect you much and also you probably know very little about" it's ridiculous. No man is an island, I for one am fully capable of empathy and solidarity with others. If something doesn't affect you personally it's even more important to learn, grow and to add your voice to help others achieve equality. Getting "offended" about inequality and injustices is surely still seen as morally decent or have we set the bar that low as a society.
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Post by jimianto on Dec 7, 2020 14:13:11 GMT
Holocaust Memorial Day and Remembrance Sunday are not Marxist political movements. Keep BLM out of sport. There was nothing wrong with the much more positive Kick It Out movement. Your final sentence is 100% correct and I hope the Kick It Out organisation gets a kick up the backside to be more proactive now because of this. However the weird “Marxist” conspiracy theory stuff belongs with the crazed tin hat crackpots that it came from. Read BLM's manifesto for action!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 14:22:16 GMT
Your final sentence is 100% correct and I hope the Kick It Out organisation gets a kick up the backside to be more proactive now because of this. However the weird “Marxist” conspiracy theory stuff belongs with the crazed tin hat crackpots that it came from. Read BLM's manifesto for action! I have read the Manifestos from both UK BLM and Welsh BLM which parts do you think are inherently marxist? and if possible can you explain what you see "Marxist" as being. Not trying to pick a fight I'm genuinely interested to see a point of view on this which is so different to mine. I'm quite happy to move that to off topic as it's strays away from the original topic.
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Post by jimianto on Dec 7, 2020 14:25:22 GMT
Holocaust Memorial Day and Remembrance Sunday are not Marxist political movements. Keep BLM out of sport. There was nothing wrong with the much more positive Kick It Out movement. I see we've reached the point whereby we will spout total nonsense that comes out of Donald Trump's mouth in order to diminish the fight for racial equality. Shameful behaviour. Totally disagree and nothing to do with Trump. How is it shameful that I don't buy into an aggressive political ideology?
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Post by jimianto on Dec 7, 2020 14:53:09 GMT
Read BLM's manifesto for action! I have read the Manifestos from both UK BLM and Welsh BLM which parts do you think are inherently marxist? and if possible can you explain what you see "Marxist" as being. Not trying to pick a fight I'm genuinely interested to see a point of view on this which is so different to mine. I'm quite happy to move that to off topic as it's strays away from the original topic. I don't know about the specific publications that you mention, but the BLM co-founder, Patrisse Cullors admits that she and the other co-founders are 'trained Marxists'. Her quotes on this are freely available all over the net. BLM literally self-identifies as a neo-Marxist movement with various far left objectives, including defunding the police (an evolution of the Panther position of public open-carry to control the police in US), to dismantling capitalism and the patriarchal system, disrupting the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure, seeking reparations from slavery to redistribute wealth and via various offshoot appeals, to raise money to bail black prisoners awaiting trial (for crimes they actually did commit). Some manifesto demands are: - Implement mandatory diversity and inclusion training for all (!!!) , celebrate the achievements of our Black and minority ethnic staff and service users (just black staff then?), make our values and commitment to anti-racism clear through developing an Equality, Diversity and Inclusion (EDI) Action Plan (fair enough) Create a designated EDI post in our HR team to support our Black staff , Improve our staff ethnicity data and publish race pay gap (illegal in UK, so cr*p) reporting from 2021 , Set up an EDI reference group to audit and challenge our social media, publications and promotional activity, to ensure positive images and messaging , Enable and support all our Black staff and those from under-represented groups working as senior support workers or more senior roles to complete accredited professional and management qualifications. Many in the UK may believe that homelessness and other issues are more pressing than say Lewis Hamilton's troubles. The UK is not systemically racist and people shouldn't be shamed/bullied into taking the knee or diversity and inclusion training.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 15:22:32 GMT
Thanks for the reply, the bulk of which is directly copy and pasted from a Telegraph article I'd already read which is fair enough if you feel it represents your views, and comes down to how you choose to interpret attempting to make social change without making any changes to traditional power structures. Capitalism/Patriarchy. (disrupting the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure is frankly so outdated and backward in this day an age I won't bother to address it)
I would question how the only part you've added yourself is (for crimes they actually did commit) when the article states they are awaiting trial and may say more about you than the rest of the text. And even if they are found guilty by law everyone is entitled to the best defence available just because someone is guilty of a crime doesn't make they should face longer sentences and harsher punishments than others.
I genuinely don't see anything particularly wrong and certainly not marxist about the middle paragraph.
And the final paragraph is with the greatest respect utter rubbish. Two things are allowed to be bad at the same time, homelessness and racism are both bad one doesn't have to supersede the other. We can and should be doing as much as we can to fight both. It's my belief believe that the UK does sadly have a racism problem numerous studies and polls have found this to be the case. And I don't see whats so wrong with diversity training, the very worst thing that may happen is getting a new view point on something.
Thanks for the reply, as I said it's always good to get a new view point on something.
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Post by Lobster on Dec 7, 2020 15:23:28 GMT
Who doesn't agree that black lives matter? The only people who don't agree with that statement are racists. Even more so if they not only think that black lives don't matter, but they would actively choose to boo such a statement. And racism is a banning order offence so its pretty clear cut as far as I'm concerned. If your view on this is any different to your attitude toward, for example, people booing on remembrance weekend, or Holocaust Memorial day, then you ought to have a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself why that might be. Holocaust Memorial Day and Remembrance Sunday are not Marxist political movements. Keep BLM out of sport. There was nothing wrong with the much more positive Kick It Out movement. I think you would have to ask the people it's supposed to be protecting about that. I get the impression the Kick It Out campaign has been struggling to gain support and trust for some time and has become little more than a nice jingle for the FA and mostly white people to repeat.
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Post by Firestick Frank on Dec 7, 2020 15:40:58 GMT
Imagine being so angry about the idea that diversity training should be mandatory 🤦♂️
Notice you also edged towards the realms of “straight Pride/white history month” talk too. Dangerous.
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Post by Deva Chanter on Dec 7, 2020 15:46:53 GMT
I have read the Manifestos from both UK BLM and Welsh BLM which parts do you think are inherently marxist? and if possible can you explain what you see "Marxist" as being. Not trying to pick a fight I'm genuinely interested to see a point of view on this which is so different to mine. I'm quite happy to move that to off topic as it's strays away from the original topic. I don't know about the specific publications that you mention, but the BLM co-founder, Patrisse Cullors admits that she and the other co-founders are 'trained Marxists'. Her quotes on this are freely available all over the net. BLM literally self-identifies as a neo-Marxist movement with various far left objectives, including defunding the police (an evolution of the Panther position of public open-carry to control the police in US), to dismantling capitalism and the patriarchal system, disrupting the Western-prescribed nuclear family structure, seeking reparations from slavery to redistribute wealth and via various offshoot appeals, to raise money to bail black prisoners awaiting trial (for crimes they actually did commit). Some manifesto demands are: - Implement mandatory diversity and inclusion training for all (!!!) , celebrate the achievements of our Black and minority ethnic staff and service users (just black staff then?), make our values and commitment to anti-racism clear through developing an Equality, Diversity and Inclusion (EDI) Action Plan (fair enough) Create a designated EDI post in our HR team to support our Black staff , Improve our staff ethnicity data and publish race pay gap (illegal in UK, so cr*p) reporting from 2021 , Set up an EDI reference group to audit and challenge our social media, publications and promotional activity, to ensure positive images and messaging , Enable and support all our Black staff and those from under-represented groups working as senior support workers or more senior roles to complete accredited professional and management qualifications. Many in the UK may believe that homelessness and other issues are more pressing than say Lewis Hamilton's troubles. The UK is not systemically racist and people shouldn't be shamed/bullied into taking the knee or diversity and inclusion training. The things you've put in brackets, alongside your desire to use a nearly 6-year old quote from one of it's co-founders are a very revealing insight into your psyche. "Celebrate the achievements of our black and ethnic minority staff". You have then added '(just black staff then?)' when it quite evidently says no such thing. Why would you think that statement means *only black staff*? That you think celebrating black and ethnic minority staff is some sort of dig at white people shows that you are making these arguments from a place completely devoid of good faith. Two-thirds of white Americans had a negative view of Martin Luther King when he was alive. He never had the support of white America - and why? Because he was characterised as a 'Marxist' by the FBI and others. These absurd red scare tactics, such as those used by the FBI and Trump, repeated by people like you, are exactly how anti-racist movements throughout history have been delegitimised. As I said, shameful behaviour.
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Post by jimianto on Dec 7, 2020 17:11:07 GMT
Holocaust Memorial Day and Remembrance Sunday are not Marxist political movements. Keep BLM out of sport. There was nothing wrong with the much more positive Kick It Out movement. I think you would have to ask the people it's supposed to be protecting about that. I get the impression the Kick It Out campaign has been struggling to gain support and trust for some time and has become little more than a nice jingle for the FA and mostly white people to repeat. Fair comment
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Post by Ian H Block on Dec 7, 2020 17:21:21 GMT
Who doesn't agree that black lives matter? The only people who don't agree with that statement are racists. Even more so if they not only think that black lives don't matter, but they would actively choose to boo such a statement. And racism is a banning order offence so its pretty clear cut as far as I'm concerned. If your view on this is any different to your attitude toward, for example, people booing on remembrance weekend, or Holocaust Memorial day, then you ought to have a long hard look in the mirror and ask yourself why that might be. Holocaust Memorial Day and Remembrance Sunday are not Marxist political movements. Keep BLM out of sport. There was nothing wrong with the much more positive Kick It Out movement.
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Post by Lobster on Dec 8, 2020 20:36:55 GMT
Apparently a different approach to anti-racism was met with applause at Millwall tonight, which does make you wonder if it's time to change it. Difficult situation though as that's kind of giving in to the booers.
Meanwhile Istanbul Basaksehir have apparently walked off the pitch at PSG in protest against racist abuse.
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Post by avfo on Dec 8, 2020 20:43:54 GMT
Apparently a different approach to anti-racism was met with applause at Millwall tonight, which does make you wonder if it's time to change it. Difficult situation though as that's kind of giving in to the booers. Meanwhile Istanbul Basaksehir have apparently walked off the pitch at PSG in protest against racist abuse. Fourth official red carded after referring to Istanbul coach as "the black guy" apparently. Story keeps changing, 4th official not sent off, but players walked off after Demba Bar confronted the official - "You never say ‘this white guy’, you say: ‘these guys, So, listen to me, why when you mention a black guy do you have to say ‘this black guy?".
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Post by rcb on Dec 8, 2020 21:17:20 GMT
Apparently a different approach to anti-racism was met with applause at Millwall tonight, which does make you wonder if it's time to change it. Difficult situation though as that's kind of giving in to the booers. Meanwhile Istanbul Basaksehir have apparently walked off the pitch at PSG in protest against racist abuse. Fourth official red carded after referring to Istanbul coach as "the black guy" apparently. Story keeps changing, 4th official not sent off, but players walked off after Demba Bar confronted the official - "You never say ‘this white guy’, you say: ‘these guys, So, listen to me, why when you mention a black guy do you have to say ‘this black guy?". I assume the ‘B’ in BLM stands for black, in which the word black seems acceptable. If the official simply says ‘the black guy’ when the rest of the group are white then that surely is a matter of observation, not discrimination.
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Post by Firestick Frank on Dec 8, 2020 21:23:09 GMT
Fourth official red carded after referring to Istanbul coach as "the black guy" apparently. Story keeps changing, 4th official not sent off, but players walked off after Demba Bar confronted the official - "You never say ‘this white guy’, you say: ‘these guys, So, listen to me, why when you mention a black guy do you have to say ‘this black guy?". I assume the ‘B’ in BLM stands for black, in which the word black seems acceptable. If the official simply says ‘the black guy’ when the rest of the group are white then that surely is a matter of observation, not discrimination. A match official should be saying “number 19” or whatever, not “the black guy”.
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Post by Lobster on Dec 8, 2020 21:23:42 GMT
Fourth official red carded after referring to Istanbul coach as "the black guy" apparently. Story keeps changing, 4th official not sent off, but players walked off after Demba Bar confronted the official - "You never say ‘this white guy’, you say: ‘these guys, So, listen to me, why when you mention a black guy do you have to say ‘this black guy?". I assume the ‘B’ in BLM stands for black, in which the word black seems acceptable. If the official simply says ‘the black guy’ when the rest of the group are white then that surely is a matter of observation, not discrimination. All about context. We don't know in what manner it was said, or if indeed it was said at all.
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Post by Oaks Blue on Dec 8, 2020 21:26:15 GMT
I assume the ‘B’ in BLM stands for black, in which the word black seems acceptable. If the official simply says ‘the black guy’ when the rest of the group are white then that surely is a matter of observation, not discrimination. A match official should be saying “number 19” or whatever, not “the black guy”. My football knowledge may be limited but I dont think coaches wear squad numbers...
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Post by Neil Hunt Nonsense Potter on Dec 9, 2020 8:57:22 GMT
Holocaust Memorial Day and Remembrance Sunday are not Marxist political movements. Keep BLM out of sport. There was nothing wrong with the much more positive Kick It Out movement. View AttachmentA great meme. I see players taking the knee as a reminder to people that discrimination exists. It reminds people who may then consider their attitude. If the BLM party are "marxists" this is of no import? There are white marxists too no? It isn't about parties, its about people. Saw on Ch4 news this week that a black man in London is 19 times more likely to be stop and searched. If the crimes these searches are aimed at stopping are 19 times more likely to be by the black community then ok. Are they 19 times more likely? Anyone growing up white in England KNOWS that racism still exists. Grandparents, parents etc were brought up in an era where people were openly frightened by the rivers of blood that were coming. I'm approaching 50 but where I grew up we had black and mixed race children around here. Everyone got on. Even in Chester. My kids would be rightly appalled if their grandparents said anything untoward. The British public has changed its mindset, and our younger people are more tolerant and understanding because of it. They get "taking the knee". If people with a public persona choose to do this to highlight the fact that people worse off than them are being treated badly then good luck to them. Booing it was a club in Millwall whose supporters try too hard to manufacture this British Bulldog Tommy English 80s hooligan image. You will get those who may follow like Colchester. To me they have no "they are a marxist party" nuance, they are just small minded racists, like some of those posting to defend them on here.
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Post by Firestick Frank on Dec 9, 2020 11:02:04 GMT
A great meme. I see players taking the knee as a reminder to people that discrimination exists. It reminds people who may then consider their attitude. If the BLM party are "marxists" this is of no import? There are white marxists too no? It isn't about parties, its about people. Saw on Ch4 news this week that a black man in London is 19 times more likely to be stop and searched. If the crimes these searches are aimed at stopping are 19 times more likely to be by the black community then ok. Are they 19 times more likely? Anyone growing up white in England KNOWS that racism still exists. Grandparents, parents etc were brought up in an era where people were openly frightened by the rivers of blood that were coming. I'm approaching 50 but where I grew up we had black and mixed race children around here. Everyone got on. Even in Chester. My kids would be rightly appalled if their grandparents said anything untoward. The British public has changed its mindset, and our younger people are more tolerant and understanding because of it. They get "taking the knee". If people with a public persona choose to do this to highlight the fact that people worse off than them are being treated badly then good luck to them. Booing it was a club in Millwall whose supporters try too hard to manufacture this British Bulldog Tommy English 80s hooligan image. You will get those who may follow like Colchester. To me they have no "they are a marxist party" nuance, they are just small minded racists, like some of those posting to defend them on here. White men on social media are the best placed to say what ethnic minorities and women should and shouldn’t find offensive.
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Post by happyclapper52 on Dec 9, 2020 12:04:12 GMT
So you are now discriminating against: working classes white women black people
Yes my reply is just as sarcastic as yours.
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Post by Lobster on Dec 9, 2020 12:07:44 GMT
So you are now discriminating against: working classes white women black people Yes my reply is just as sarcastic as yours. And even more nonsensical.
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Post by Oaks Blue on Dec 9, 2020 12:13:09 GMT
Is this still about football?
Nope
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Post by Lobster on Dec 9, 2020 12:14:56 GMT
Is this still about football? Nope Are you still here?
Yep
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