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Post by Lobster on Sept 14, 2021 18:17:50 GMT
Because more than 2 businesses a year can be successful. In football, only 10% or so of clubs can get promoted in any given season. All clubs in a division can be run brilliantly but some still have to be relegated. My dad never took me to Frankie and Benny's every other Saturday for years and I didn't have some of the most exciting moments of my life there either. I don't see old friends and loads of familiar faces when I go to Frankie and Benny's and loads of people who've known me over the years don't remember me when they hear about Frankie and Benny's. There are some ways that football clubs are like other businesses, but plenty of ways they're not And you don't go to Frankie and Benny's to appreciate the chefs. Not that I go to Chester expecting quality football. If I get some I really enjoy the moment. I enjoy the tension, the anticipation and sometimes the surprise at not being disappointed. You can take or leave a restaurant, if that is how you feel about your football club then maybe it isn't your football club, it is just a commodity. Maybe that it is how it is for some, but I'm not really interested in any other football club. Exactly. The clue is in the word "club". We don't call them "franchises" or "products" like Americans do. They're something you sign up for, a commitment and part of your social life.
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Sept 14, 2021 19:04:48 GMT
Last few posts have been superb, thanks guys for elaborating on my very brief remark earlier in the thread.
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te
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Post by te on Sept 15, 2021 5:49:08 GMT
And you don't go to Frankie and Benny's to appreciate the chefs. Not that I go to Chester expecting quality football. If I get some I really enjoy the moment. I enjoy the tension, the anticipation and sometimes the surprise at not being disappointed. You can take or leave a restaurant, if that is how you feel about your football club then maybe it isn't your football club, it is just a commodity. Maybe that it is how it is for some, but I'm not really interested in any other football club. Exactly. The clue is in the word "club". We don't call them "franchises" or "products" like Americans do. They're something you sign up for, a commitment and part of your social life. If you want join a club why not join your local Allotment society or Darby and Joan , the football lovers amongst us just want a half decent togger team to support again and only outside investment will bring that about again
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Post by Lobster on Sept 15, 2021 6:31:59 GMT
Exactly. The clue is in the word "club". We don't call them "franchises" or "products" like Americans do. They're something you sign up for, a commitment and part of your social life. If you want join a club why not join your local Allotment society or Darby and Joan , the football lovers amongst us just want a half decent togger team to support again and only outside investment will bring that about again We've never been that good, you know?
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Sept 15, 2021 6:45:40 GMT
Exactly. The clue is in the word "club". We don't call them "franchises" or "products" like Americans do. They're something you sign up for, a commitment and part of your social life. If you want join a club why not join your local Allotment society or Darby and Joan , the football lovers amongst us just want a half decent togger team to support again and only outside investment will bring that about again You do know this is Chester, not Chelsea right? I’ve been a fan for 30 years and I get nosebleeds whenever we’re anywhere near the top three in the league.
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Post by highpeakblue on Sept 15, 2021 8:17:59 GMT
Exactly. The clue is in the word "club". We don't call them "franchises" or "products" like Americans do. They're something you sign up for, a commitment and part of your social life. If you want join a club why not join your local Allotment society or Darby and Joan , the football lovers amongst us just want a half decent togger team to support again and only outside investment will bring that about again If you want instant success, Chelsea or Man City might be better for you. Lots of investment there. We've always been shit, just different shades of it. It has never been about success.
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Post by iandychesterfc on Sept 15, 2021 8:27:54 GMT
Anyone know what we’re gonna do next season when we don’t raise anywhere near 100k and we’re in the northern premier league ? hyperbole aside (we're not going to be relegated) we've already discussed that this is the biggest challenge for fan owned model facing a dwindling fanbase.
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Post by iandychesterfc on Sept 15, 2021 8:32:02 GMT
If you want join a club why not join your local Allotment society or Darby and Joan , the football lovers amongst us just want a half decent togger team to support again and only outside investment will bring that about again We've never been that good, you know? I'm sorry this is a poor argument. We have been a football league club for most of the time everyone has been following Chester other than likes of Rio. League 6 is w&nk. I can fully understand why fans who have enjoyed many seasons following us in the football league are struggling to be served up the absolute dirge that is national league north level. winning or losing. Theres a massive difference being a bit shit in L2 and being average in CN
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Post by Deleted on Sept 15, 2021 8:42:05 GMT
We've never been that good, you know? I'm sorry this is a poor argument. We have been a football league club for most of the time everyone has been following Chester other than likes of Rio. League 6 is w&nk. I can fully understand why fans who have enjoyed many seasons following us in the football league are struggling to be served up the absolute dirge that is national league north level. winning or losing. Theres a massive difference being a bit shit in L2 and being average in CN I’m 31 so picked up a few years of league football in 90’s and when we had a solid side under Curle etc. In the last 25 years though we’ve probably only spent 8-9 seasons in the football league though? I don’t understand this mentality of ‘we’re a league club so we need an investor to take us back’. We were a league club in 70’s and 80’s averaging still only 3,000 odd a game so where’s this craving for league football? The divisions after a handful of games are doing us no good as a fan base.
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Sept 15, 2021 9:11:53 GMT
Ah but "we" have only been in existence for 11 years having started from nothing - there needs to be a sense of realism here. The original club formed in 1885 took 46 years to get into the Football League, for example. Obviously the football landscape has vastly changed since then, just making the point that an 11-year old club has no divine right to be in the League just because its Facebook fans remember us playing against Fulham, Brighton, Stoke and Birmingham in league games decades ago and wet their beds everytime we lose a game.
The first three seasons of Newco is still is an unprecedented anomaly (a bloody great one, all the same) and supporters and the board at the time got giddy when we perhaps should have consolidated and built off the field for a year or two - the football team ran a 10k before the club could walk, essentially. We have proven that we can compete in the National (Burr, top half finish and a Cup run in the same season) but we didnt progress from there, Burr went off the rails and we steadily dropped for a couple of years save for a brilliant first half of one season under McCarthy with the unbeaten run, clean sheet record etc. McCarthy then blew our biggest budget since reforming and we ended up relegated by the end of that season - poor choices by an ultimately poor manager, it happens to tons of clubs.
We have clearly progressed since the LADS took charge - 9th, 6th, 3rd but we've had a shocking start to this season. Thats all it is, though, a start - six games into a 42-game season, nothing is won or lost. They do need to massively improve tactically - I honestly get the feeling they're used to signing players and not coaching improvement (see massive Salford budget) as our defensive frailties and the manner in which we regularly concede from set plays and crosses demonstrates. Its a bad patch, everyone has them, but no need to start demanding a change of the ownership model over it.
In terms of off the field, we need to somehow maximise commercial revenue during an existing pandemic and associated economic decline impacting on thousands of businesses. We ideally need to replace George with a fully-employed Commercial Manager with previous experience in commercial activity. Yes the board and Paul Bodman are working hard voluntarily and any decent experienced commercial individual won't come cheap but if they can generate income vastly above their salary (which is surely what we would want anyway!) then they will more than pay for themselves - not just in attracting monetary sponsorships but in striking deals for services in exchange for prominent advertising space etc.
Just think some of us need to chill out a bit, is all.
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Post by iandychesterfc on Sept 15, 2021 9:13:05 GMT
It's not that we're a league club, no-one has that right, you only have to look at the established non-league club down the road.
You have to appreciate differences in opinion though. As stated on the previous page there will always be the split between those who are 'happy to have a club to support' and those who want to get back to the league. Of course everyone wants to get back to the league but at present there is enough fans happy to watch a team in division 6 to make the model viable. This may not continue as the club is not setup to be a parochial non-league club because of its location etc.
Its not about how many fans we had, its the quality of the football. It is really poor at this level, not so long ago we absolutely steamrolled this league (irrespective of your thoughts on respective quality of it, we absolutely steamrolled it). Yes we struggled through the 90s and the 00s were bi-polar from August and January onwards but watching us being average to mediocre at this level is a tough ask for fans aged over 35 (not excluding you intentionally is just a group of fans i know have disappeared).
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Post by iandychesterfc on Sept 15, 2021 9:15:23 GMT
Ah but "we" have only been in existence for 11 years having started from nothing - there needs to be a sense of realism here. The original club formed in 1885 took 46 years to get into the Football League, for example. Obviously the football landscape has vastly changed since then, just making the point that an 11-year old club has no divine right to be in the League just because its Facebook fans remember us playing against Fulham, Brighton, Stoke and Birmingham in league games decades ago and wet their beds everytime we lose a game. The first three seasons of Newco is still is an unprecedented anomaly (a bloody great one, all the same) and supporters and the board at the time got giddy when we perhaps should have consolidated and built off the field for a year or two - the football team ran a 10k before the club could walk, essentially. We have proven that we can compete in the National (Burr, top half finish and a Cup run in the same season) but we didnt progress from there, Burr went off the rails and we steadily dropped for a couple of years save for a brilliant first half of one season under McCarthy with the unbeaten run, clean sheet record etc. McCarthy then blew our biggest bidget since reforming and we ended up relegated by ther end of that season - poor choices by an ultimately poor manager, it happens to tons of clubs. We have clearly progressed since the LADS took charge - 9th, 6th, 3rd but we've had a shocking start to this season. Thats all it is, though, a start - six games into a 42-game season, nothing is won or lost. They do need to massively improve tactically - I honestly get the feeling they're used to signing players and not coaching improvement (see massive Salford budget) as our defensive frailties and the manner in which we regularly concede from set plays and crosses demosntrates. Its a bad patch, everyone has them, but no need to start demanding a change of the ownership model over it. In terms of off the field, we need to somehow maximise commercial revenue during an existing pandemic and associated economic decline imapcting on thousands of businesses. We ideally need to replace George with a fully-employed Commercial Manager with previous experience in commercial activity. Yes the board and Paul Bodman are working hard voluntarily and any decent experienced commercial individual won't come cheap but if they can generate income vastly above their salary 9which is surely what we would want anyway!) then they will more than pay for themselves - not just in attracting monetary sponsorships but in striking deals for services in exchange for prominent advertising space etc. Just think some of us need to chill out a bit, is all. I know you have this view of the club but i'm sure you appreciate it is not shared universally. Mediocrity in the 6th Division brings with it significant difficulties commercially.
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Post by highpeakblue on Sept 15, 2021 9:15:53 GMT
We've never been that good, you know? I'm sorry this is a poor argument. We have been a football league club for most of the time everyone has been following Chester other than likes of Rio. League 6 is w&nk. I can fully understand why fans who have enjoyed many seasons following us in the football league are struggling to be served up the absolute dirge that is national league north level. winning or losing. Theres a massive difference being a bit shit in L2 and being average in CN We were hardly a secure League club. Roughly 1 year in 10 we had to apply for re-election and it was only the rigged system that saved us (as it saved virtually every club). If it weren't for that I suspect we would have found ourselves being a non-league club a lot earlier, along with a few others, or at least yo-yoing between the two.
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Post by iandychesterfc on Sept 15, 2021 9:21:00 GMT
I'm sorry this is a poor argument. We have been a football league club for most of the time everyone has been following Chester other than likes of Rio. League 6 is w&nk. I can fully understand why fans who have enjoyed many seasons following us in the football league are struggling to be served up the absolute dirge that is national league north level. winning or losing. Theres a massive difference being a bit shit in L2 and being average in CN We were hardly a secure League club. Roughly 1 year in 10 we had to apply for re-election and it was only the rigged system that saved us (as it saved virtually every club). If it weren't for that I suspect we would have found ourselves being a non-league club a lot earlier, along with a few others, or at least yo-yoing between the two. Going back a bit there surely? Late eightys and early 90s were we in the third tier despite the Moss Rose move. So anyone born in mid to late 70s has only really known league footy, indeed im sure in 2000 we had been a leaue club for 70 years wasnt it?
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Sept 15, 2021 9:54:38 GMT
Again we’re going back to the ownership model discussion because the managers aren’t getting the best out of their squad and the football is currently ‘mediocre’. Not like we’re in the minority of clubs in that respect is it?
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Post by iandychesterfc on Sept 15, 2021 10:00:36 GMT
The level is mediocre, some are content with division 6, some are not. Thats the discussion, not the current form.
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Sept 15, 2021 10:03:05 GMT
Yeah it is mediocre. We’ve finished play-offs and then challenging for top spot the last two seasons when they were cut short - we’re making progress. The squad assembled this summer was raved about for the most part and we’re only six games into the season. Plenty of time to turn it around.
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Post by Lobster on Sept 15, 2021 10:54:47 GMT
We've never been that good, you know? I'm sorry this is a poor argument. We have been a football league club for most of the time everyone has been following Chester other than likes of Rio. League 6 is w&nk. I can fully understand why fans who have enjoyed many seasons following us in the football league are struggling to be served up the absolute dirge that is national league north level. winning or losing. Theres a massive difference being a bit shit in L2 and being average in CN It was a flippant response I'll admit, but given his retort was to tell me to go and join an allotment society, I didn't think he deserved any better. Regarding your other point, I don't think anyone is "content" for us to play level 6 football. There may be different tolerance levels and different senses of priority, and some fans may be able to derive more enjoyment from NLN football than others, but everyone wants us to play at a higher level. Being pro-supporter ownership and being ambitious don't have to be mutually exclusive.
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Sept 15, 2021 11:35:23 GMT
Regarding your other point, I don't think anyone is "content" for us to play level 6 football. There may be different tolerance levels and different senses of priority, and some fans may be able to derive more enjoyment from NLN football than others, but everyone wants us to play at a higher level. Being pro-supporter ownership and being ambitious don't have to be mutually exclusive. Exactly, some of us are just a little more patient and don’t wish to risk the future existence of the club for the *possibility* of immediate short-term success. We are also realistic as to the nature of any private owner we would attract given our tumultuous history since the 80’s (Ray Crofts aside) and the fact that the one person who has shown any real interest turned out to be a fruitloop.
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Post by Si on Sept 15, 2021 12:08:56 GMT
I've resisted the urge to post about the whole ownership debate until now, as it wouldn't even be up for discussion had we not had a poor start to the season, but I think it's typical of football supporters in general these days that a couple of bad results makes them go hysterical - see Solsjaer/Man United social media last night.....they were all creaming over United at the weekend and now Ole is suddenly tactically clueless.
I don't know why people are discussing league football that much. It's a long term ambition for sure, every club should have long term ambitions. The ambition over the last 18 months has been to ensure that we still actually have a football club during a worldwide pandemic, whilst simultaneously coping with reduced income from when Murphy spat his dummy out because we expected him to pay his commitments. This board has helped us to achieve these ambitions, and not only that we now have work commencing on a facility that is going to be crucial to this football club going forwards. Football wise, the short term ambition should be to achieve promotion and stabilise in the National League - this to me is a sensible and achievable ambition within our current ownership model. Whether that ownership model is enough to return us to the football league (and keep us there) is another debate, but probably a debate to be had once we're at least back in the National League. Had it not been for Covid, I'm convinced that we would have made it out of the league in the previous 2 seasons as progress was being made and most of us recognised that. We've had a bad start to the season, not helped by Covid, not helped by some strange tactical/selection issues, and most certainly not being helped by impatient supporters who feel the need to cry about being supporter owned every time someone turns us over. We can all question what's gone on on the pitch and have our opinions, but I don't get why we have to talk about abandoning the model after each dodgy patch of form. I also don't buy that we've become a bad team or have bad managers over night - I have been scratching my head a bit with some of the managers choices of late but we are early in the season and I'm convinced we'll improve. If we don't improve, then tough decisions will need to be made, but it doesn't mean that we can't work as a supporter owned club, it would just mean that managers pay the price for some bad form which happens no matter who owns the club.
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Post by agl on Sept 15, 2021 15:59:39 GMT
I've resisted the urge to post about the whole ownership debate until now, as it wouldn't even be up for discussion had we not had a poor start to the season, but I think it's typical of football supporters in general these days that a couple of bad results makes them go hysterical - see Solsjaer/Man United social media last night.....they were all creaming over United at the weekend and now Ole is suddenly tactically clueless. I don't know why people are discussing league football that much. It's a long term ambition for sure, every club should have long term ambitions. The ambition over the last 18 months has been to ensure that we still actually have a football club during a worldwide pandemic, whilst simultaneously coping with reduced income from when Murphy spat his dummy out because we expected him to pay his commitments. This board has helped us to achieve these ambitions, and not only that we now have work commencing on a facility that is going to be crucial to this football club going forwards. Football wise, the short term ambition should be to achieve promotion and stabilise in the National League - this to me is a sensible and achievable ambition within our current ownership model. Whether that ownership model is enough to return us to the football league (and keep us there) is another debate, but probably a debate to be had once we're at least back in the National League. Had it not been for Covid, I'm convinced that we would have made it out of the league in the previous 2 seasons as progress was being made and most of us recognised that. We've had a bad start to the season, not helped by Covid, not helped by some strange tactical/selection issues, and most certainly not being helped by impatient supporters who feel the need to cry about being supporter owned every time someone turns us over. We can all question what's gone on on the pitch and have our opinions, but I don't get why we have to talk about abandoning the model after each dodgy patch of form. I also don't buy that we've become a bad team or have bad managers over night - I have been scratching my head a bit with some of the managers choices of late but we are early in the season and I'm convinced we'll improve. If we don't improve, then tough decisions will need to be made, but it doesn't mean that we can't work as a supporter owned club, it would just mean that managers pay the price for some bad form which happens no matter who owns the club. I suspect the vast majority of fans (myself included) would accept a club that was solid in National League. I grew up watching league football but times have moved on. NLN in terms of the football and grounds is pretty dire and if I thought this was it as far as the future goes I'd pack in now. We might just have to write this season off, although I'm hopeful matters will pick up on the pitch. Off the pitch we are, ironically, probably in better shape than at any time since we reformed (in terms of infrastructure and organisation). I'm not sure Bern and Jonno are the men to take us forward - they do seem to rely entirely on man management rather than actual coaching- but you can't bin managers after six games. Ideally we need to get to the end of the season and then take stock.
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Post by Al on Sept 15, 2021 19:04:03 GMT
All i want to see is a club that's laying the foundations with the community, and visibly increasing our presence in the city (see KGV), i also want a club to invest in the youth academy and bring our own players through into the first team.
I would love to see us have a winning first team made up entirely of players from our youth academy. All local lads all knowing what it means to play for their local club.
That has to be the aim for us
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Post by iandychesterfc on Sept 16, 2021 11:40:26 GMT
I've resisted the urge to post about the whole ownership debate until now, as it wouldn't even be up for discussion had we not had a poor start to the season, but I think it's typical of football supporters in general these days that a couple of bad results makes them go hysterical - see Solsjaer/Man United social media last night.....they were all creaming over United at the weekend and now Ole is suddenly tactically clueless. I don't know why people are discussing league football that much. It's a long term ambition for sure, every club should have long term ambitions. The ambition over the last 18 months has been to ensure that we still actually have a football club during a worldwide pandemic, whilst simultaneously coping with reduced income from when Murphy spat his dummy out because we expected him to pay his commitments. This board has helped us to achieve these ambitions, and not only that we now have work commencing on a facility that is going to be crucial to this football club going forwards. Football wise, the short term ambition should be to achieve promotion and stabilise in the National League - this to me is a sensible and achievable ambition within our current ownership model. Whether that ownership model is enough to return us to the football league (and keep us there) is another debate, but probably a debate to be had once we're at least back in the National League. Had it not been for Covid, I'm convinced that we would have made it out of the league in the previous 2 seasons as progress was being made and most of us recognised that. We've had a bad start to the season, not helped by Covid, not helped by some strange tactical/selection issues, and most certainly not being helped by impatient supporters who feel the need to cry about being supporter owned every time someone turns us over. We can all question what's gone on on the pitch and have our opinions, but I don't get why we have to talk about abandoning the model after each dodgy patch of form. I also don't buy that we've become a bad team or have bad managers over night - I have been scratching my head a bit with some of the managers choices of late but we are early in the season and I'm convinced we'll improve. If we don't improve, then tough decisions will need to be made, but it doesn't mean that we can't work as a supporter owned club, it would just mean that managers pay the price for some bad form which happens no matter who owns the club. I suspect the vast majority of fans (myself included) would accept a club that was solid in National League. I grew up watching league football but times have moved on. NLN in terms of the football and grounds is pretty dire and if I thought this was it as far as the future goes I'd pack in now. We might just have to write this season off, although I'm hopeful matters will pick up on the pitch. Off the pitch we are, ironically, probably in better shape than at any time since we reformed (in terms of infrastructure and organisation). I'm not sure Bern and Jonno are the men to take us forward - they do seem to rely entirely on man management rather than actual coaching- but you can't bin managers after six games. Ideally we need to get to the end of the season and then take stock. This is the point i'm making, the longer we are at this level the bigger the impact on attendances as we are not setup to be a regional non-league side. I appreciate people are saying they are more patient than others but theres a large chunk who won't stomach it. It's not about form, its seeing how our money plus the big incentives are not running us close to the top.
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Post by South Wirral Blue on Sept 16, 2021 12:38:33 GMT
I suspect the vast majority of fans (myself included) would accept a club that was solid in National League. I grew up watching league football but times have moved on. NLN in terms of the football and grounds is pretty dire and if I thought this was it as far as the future goes I'd pack in now. We might just have to write this season off, although I'm hopeful matters will pick up on the pitch. Off the pitch we are, ironically, probably in better shape than at any time since we reformed (in terms of infrastructure and organisation). I'm not sure Bern and Jonno are the men to take us forward - they do seem to rely entirely on man management rather than actual coaching- but you can't bin managers after six games. Ideally we need to get to the end of the season and then take stock. This is the point i'm making, the longer we are at this level the bigger the impact on attendances as we are not setup to be a regional non-league side. I appreciate people are saying they are more patient than others but theres a large chunk who won't stomach it. It's not about form, its seeing how our money plus the big incentives are not running us close to the top. Agree with this. Totally understand those who see things a different way but anyone thinking concerns such as these are just down to a few bad results are missing the point.
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Sept 16, 2021 13:02:32 GMT
Play-offs followed by title challenge before season cut short. I’d say that was “running close to the top”.
You want to argue the case against, but the fact of the matter is this thread, and other similar threads, has only appeared during a bad run of form by the football first team.
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Post by South Wirral Blue on Sept 16, 2021 13:24:02 GMT
Play-offs followed by title challenge before season cut short. I’d say that was “running close to the top”. You want to argue the case against, but the fact of the matter is this thread, and other similar threads, has only appeared during a bad run of form by the football first team. Conversations about the pros and cons of fan ownership aren't just limited to what you read on DevaChat - they happen in the stands, in the Blues Bar, on the Hipkiss Express, among people who don't go anymore etc. The idea that people only criticise the ownership model after a loss or two is hilariously narrow minded.
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Sept 16, 2021 13:32:32 GMT
No it isn’t. It’s proven.
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Post by Lobster on Sept 16, 2021 14:10:36 GMT
Play-offs followed by title challenge before season cut short. I’d say that was “running close to the top”. You want to argue the case against, but the fact of the matter is this thread, and other similar threads, has only appeared during a bad run of form by the football first team. Conversations about the pros and cons of fan ownership aren't just limited to what you read on DevaChat - they happen in the stands, in the Blues Bar, on the Hipkiss Express, among people who don't go anymore etc. The idea that people only criticise the ownership model after a loss or two is hilariously narrow minded. That may be true, but what he said was these threads only appear on this forum during bad form, which is correct. This one was started after the Kidderminster defeat and revived after the Chorley defeat. The Alfreton win in between saw the thread fall down the forum. No doubt people do have discussions about ownership with their mates and games and in the pub, but they can't be responded to on here. Forums like this are for people who want to broadcast their views and persuade others, and they do only seem to appear when they lose. For that reason, they often appear like reactionary dummy-spitting.
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Post by inthestand on Sept 16, 2021 19:48:00 GMT
.fan ownership is a club owned by the fans where most of the investment is generated …but the fans (owners) are attending less and less games, and we can’t recruit (potential owners) fans to come and watch the team play as the overall package isn’t marketable enough , therefore income streams are reduced as the owners/fans slowly withdraw their investment by not attending games…even if it was and by some miracle we were steaming away and hadn’t lost a game 18pts in the league thus far…we would still have less than 1900 watching us…and all our better players would be gone in the January transfer window…because we haven’t got the resources or financial clout to keep them here….that to me is fan ownership…
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Post by Neil Hunt Nonsense Potter on Sept 16, 2021 20:02:30 GMT
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