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Post by ray from kelsall on Jul 19, 2023 19:33:55 GMT
i have been told this before but have forgotten the answer ! Who are the members of the SAG group and are they a legal requirement for every club.Some of the grounds I've been to, Altrincham, Blyth, Brackley for example seem far worse than the Deva yet the acceptable standards set seem far more favorable for the host club than those of the Deva. It always seems to me that SAG want us to fail and make a big issue of minor items and seem pleased to hold such power over the club. Note: I'm totally against the pitch invasion and am fully aware of the trouble this caused.
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cmbwa
Full Member
Posts: 226
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SAG Group
Jul 19, 2023 20:00:05 GMT
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Post by cmbwa on Jul 19, 2023 20:00:05 GMT
They are a pathetic shambles of an organisation but have the final say.
Shocking
Jeff from Handbridge
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Post by Lobster on Jul 19, 2023 21:00:23 GMT
i have been told this before but have forgotten the answer ! Who are the members of the SAG group and are they a legal requirement for every club.Some of the grounds I've been to, Altrincham, Blyth, Brackley for example seem far worse than the Deva yet the acceptable standards set seem far more favorable for the host club than those of the Deva. It always seems to me that SAG want us to fail and make a big issue of minor items and seem pleased to hold such power over the club. Note: I'm totally against the pitch invasion and am fully aware of the trouble this caused. But do any of those clubs have the sort of issues with disorder we do? I think that's the problem we face. We have a troublemaking element that's somewhat disproportionate to the size and facilities of the club. I don't like the SAG much. For years they've seemed a mysterious and faceless Keith Lard collective who only seem to obstruct and never engage positively with the fans. But I don't really think we can complain about any of the current sanctions and if it prompts a positive change in culture in the stands, maybe it's for the best in the long run.
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SAG Group
Jul 19, 2023 21:02:44 GMT
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Post by mickyspeight on Jul 19, 2023 21:02:44 GMT
SAGs are usually co-ordinated by a Local Authority (LA) and made up of representatives from the LA, emergency services, other relevant bodies and the event organiser. They may be event or location specific but otherwise tend to be based on LA boundaries.
Purpose and scope of a SAG
SAGs provide a forum for discussing and advising on public safety at an event. They aim to help organisers with the planning, and management of an event and to encourage cooperation and coordination between all relevant agencies. They are non-statutory bodies and so do not have legal powers or responsibilities, and are not empowered to approve or prohibit events from taking place. Event organisers and others involved in the running of an event, retain the principal legal duties for ensuring public safety.
SAG Process
Event organisers should determine whether there is a SAG, or similar arrangements, in the relevant area and if appropriate, submit their event proposal for discussion and advice. Attendance of the event organiser at SAG meetings may be voluntary. There is however benefits to be gained from engagement in the SAG process from the outset. LAs may of course require events organiser's attendance eg as a condition of using their land.
Discussions may extend beyond an organiser's duty to comply with workplace health and safety law and even the boundaries of an event site, to include considering the impact on the local transport network and civil contingencies in the event of an emergency. The advice provided by the SAG and any decisions taken should be proportionate to the risk profile of the event.
The SAG should advise the event organiser about public safety matters that they think need further consideration, explaining their reasons. It is the event organiser's responsibility to take any appropriate action. On the rare occasion where there is disagreement between a SAG and the event organiser, and there remains a genuine risk to the public, individual organisations on the SAG such as the police, may decide to act to resolve the issue. Decisions on the use of these powers are matters for the relevant authorities to consider, not the SAG and should be discharged separately.
When SAGs consider events where LAs have responsibilities, eg as an organiser / co-organiser or landowner, the SAG should make the relevant LA department aware of any concerns so that they can act accordingly. An LA cannot rely on the SAG process to discharge its own legal duties. This is the responsibility of the LA. This will include decisions regarding the granting of public entertainment licenses and road closures.
When to hold a SAG
The guiding principle is that events presenting a significant public safety risk (whether in terms of numbers and profile of people attending, or the nature of the event activity and/or the challenge of the environment) should be considered. However, lower risk events like community village fetes and funfairs are unlikely to require a SAG.
Some event organisers will already have established effective liaison arrangements with external bodies or organisations like the LA and emergency services, because they will be involved in the wider management of the event eg crowd management to and from a venue and emergency arrangements. To facilitate this, some events establish a planning group/s. In these circumstances, it is often unnecessary to set-up a separate SAG.
SAGs and the role of HSE
HSE does not routinely sit on or attend SAG meetings. It is not normally appropriate for HSE to take part in the decision-making process at the planning stage, particularly where the event is organised by an LA. HSE inspectors may, however, be asked by a SAG and/or event organiser to provide advice and guidance on occupational health and safety matters, particularly where HSE is the enforcing authority for the activity concerned eg fairgrounds, broadcasting and construction activities. In these circumstances HSE is normally able to provide such advice to regulators, duty holders and others without having to attend the SAG although a local decision may be made that attendance would be appropriate.
HSE inspectors are not in a position to authorise or approve an event organiser's safety plan, so their contribution shouldn't be inferred by the SAG or the event organiser as sanctioning their methods of controlling risk.
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SAG Group
Jul 20, 2023 6:14:49 GMT
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Jul 20, 2023 6:14:49 GMT
i have been told this before but have forgotten the answer ! Who are the members of the SAG group and are they a legal requirement for every club.Some of the grounds I've been to, Altrincham, Blyth, Brackley for example seem far worse than the Deva yet the acceptable standards set seem far more favorable for the host club than those of the Deva. It always seems to me that SAG want us to fail and make a big issue of minor items and seem pleased to hold such power over the club. Note: I'm totally against the pitch invasion and am fully aware of the trouble this caused. But do any of those clubs have the sort of issues with disorder we do? I think that's the problem we face. We have a troublemaking element that's somewhat disproportionate to the size and facilities of the club. I don't like the SAG much. For years they've seemed a mysterious and faceless Keith Lard collective who only seem to obstruct and never engage positively with the fans. But I don't really think we can complain about any of the current sanctions and if it prompts a positive change in culture in the stands, maybe it's for the best in the long run. The Safety Advisory Group isn’t *that* mysterious really. Representatives from the county council, emergency services, sometimes the Health and Safety Executive and the violent arm of the establishment (I refuse to include the police force under the banner of “emergency services” like most do). Sure we have a seat at the table, being as we are the event organiser, too. The council own the land we play on and our events are held on, so will rightly feel they have a significant role in the SAG.
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SAG Group
Jul 20, 2023 10:21:52 GMT
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Post by chesterstokie on Jul 20, 2023 10:21:52 GMT
A bunch of jobsworths
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SAG Group
Jul 20, 2023 10:56:12 GMT
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Post by dobbs1211 on Jul 20, 2023 10:56:12 GMT
Do other clubs get all this? Plenty of clubs have had bother with fans and trouble but I don’t see reduced capaciy and ridiculous measures placed like we have.
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SAG Group
Jul 20, 2023 11:14:23 GMT
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Jul 20, 2023 11:14:23 GMT
SAGs are present in every local authority - oversee events from anything from a church village fete to a rock concert.
Don’t think other clubs have had 100 people storm the pitch and head straight to the away end hurling lit flares.
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Post by Anders on Jul 20, 2023 11:16:29 GMT
Does make you wonder though given the state of some of the places we go to.
Never forget when we went to Aldershot in January once, it was hammering down all day and we had to navigate the slippery mud paths in the park to the away end, went through a broken turnstile, all shared two dirty unisex portaloos and then watched the game in the wooden stand down the side. On the way out the lights were all out in the park back to the street and I saw two or three people fall over.
The next week our SAG put a temporary restriction on the East Stand because of a slightly muffled speaker….genuinely.
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SAG Group
Jul 20, 2023 11:27:41 GMT
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Post by dc2cfc on Jul 20, 2023 11:27:41 GMT
Whatever happened to Operation Eccleston (not too sure what that even was 😂)?!
Or the pre-recorded message before the start of the game in the mid 2000’s I think?
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SAG Group
Jul 20, 2023 11:31:52 GMT
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Post by dobbs1211 on Jul 20, 2023 11:31:52 GMT
SAGs are present in every local authority - oversee events from anything from a church village fete to a rock concert. Don’t think other clubs have had 100 people storm the pitch and head straight to the away end hurling lit flares. One fan chucked a flare and was nailed for it and a few went on looking for trouble, the rest just stood about. Wrong to go on the pitch but a lot of dancing about. Believe me that a lot worse has happened at other clubs with fans and players physically attacked.
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Post by Anders on Jul 20, 2023 11:53:55 GMT
SAGs are present in every local authority - oversee events from anything from a church village fete to a rock concert. Don’t think other clubs have had 100 people storm the pitch and head straight to the away end hurling lit flares. As it goes, Wrexham fans did against Luton in the not too distant past in one of those play-off defeats, there's still videos of it on youtube. Don't know if any smoke bombs/flares were chucked though.
What was strange about the Brackley inicident is the amount of people who went on were just hanging around, not violent, just a pain in the backside. I saw a woman in her mid 50's at a guess, quite big so she was very noticable, just strolled over very nonchalant filmed it on her phone about 30 seconds and then went away again. Most of this lot were probably after likes on social media then saw the reaction and realised the serioussness of it, albeit too late.
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Post by Lift Required on Jul 20, 2023 12:15:40 GMT
SAGs are present in every local authority - oversee events from anything from a church village fete to a rock concert. Don’t think other clubs have had 100 people storm the pitch and head straight to the away end hurling lit flares. One fan chucked a flare and was nailed for it and a few went on looking for trouble, the rest just stood about. Wrong to go on the pitch but a lot of dancing about. Believe me that a lot worse has happened at other clubs with fans and players physically attacked. Think the smoke must have got in your eyes! Watching from the East Stand it was worse than that ..
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Post by catfordbags on Jul 20, 2023 17:53:56 GMT
There was deffo a few loons acting daft which was out of order. As a result the club is under restrictions. What is not clear is how the current restrictions relate to the disorder that took place. IE - is it a simple punishment by adding friction to the ticketing and entrance process or is it logical restrictions to help improve processes.
In the above post it suggests that the SAG provides risk based advice. We are playing Farsley Celtic in August (100 away fans tops) with significant capacity and ticketing restrictions - what is the risk that justifies the restrictions for this game ?
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Post by blaconboy on Jul 21, 2023 16:15:07 GMT
Our supposed fans
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SAG Group
Jul 21, 2023 17:14:35 GMT
via mobile
Post by nytram on Jul 21, 2023 17:14:35 GMT
There was deffo a few loons acting daft which was out of order. As a result the club is under restrictions. What is not clear is how the current restrictions relate to the disorder that took place. IE - is it a simple punishment by adding friction to the ticketing and entrance process or is it logical restrictions to help improve processes. In the above post it suggests that the SAG provides risk based advice. We are playing Farsley Celtic in August (100 away fans tops) with significant capacity and ticketing restrictions - what is the risk that justifies the restrictions for this game ? I assume it's the SAG doing something. A 25% reduction in attendance means they've done hopefully the least they could do. It also gives a message to people if you get on the pitch your club suffers. I work in the outside event industry, people are hell to deal with when they're told to do something they don't want,unfortunately. It's a simple request Don't Go On The Pitch ( or damage coaches etc etc).
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Post by noddy on Dec 15, 2023 11:23:13 GMT
Can we have a comment or statement from someone at the club regarding this. Just phoned up the club to sort my Harry Mac ticket for the boxing day game, to be told we only have 75 tickets left and we are still under SAG restrictions. I was under the impression these restrictions were to be gradually eased during November/December but it seems that is not the case. I would be very keen to hear what is the latest situation from someone officially from the football club, as we should be kept informed on this matter.
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SAG Group
Dec 15, 2023 14:36:09 GMT
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Post by Rio Doherty on Dec 15, 2023 14:36:09 GMT
At the AGM it was said that the restrictions were going to be lifted a little sometime this month. I’d be very surprised and disappointed if they won’t be lifted by Boxing Day.
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Post by Frank Owen’s Paintbrush on Dec 15, 2023 14:54:51 GMT
Hopefully Boxing Day, usually a bumper crowd with people back for the holidays etc. But then it's a Cheshire derby so the violent arm of the establishment might have something to say.
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Post by vandycandy on Dec 15, 2023 16:26:41 GMT
Find it utterly ridiculous that they haven't been lifted already. Our fans have been impeccably behaved other than a few daft shouts about a certain nurse.
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Post by Harry Lime on Dec 15, 2023 16:53:36 GMT
Find it utterly ridiculous that they haven't been lifted already. Our fans have been impeccably behaved other than a few daft shouts about a certain nurse. It's very disappointing this hasn't been lifted. Difficult to see what else the supporters can do to demonstrate good behaviour. If this was anything other than a football crowd it would be seen as an infringement of people's rights. It's as if the SAG has an extremely low tolerance to risk. That low that it is almost zero. That can't be right. It should be balanced and in line with other jurisdictions, which doesn't appear to be the case. Boxing Day is probably a game where the crowd might exceed the current safety limits. Maybe they're just waiting for that to be out of way.
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Post by wxmred on Dec 15, 2023 17:36:02 GMT
May be the SAG want a quiet Christmas.
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Post by sammychester on Dec 15, 2023 18:10:09 GMT
SAG Group? More like the SAD Group. Absolutely embarrassing jobsworths
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SAG Group
Dec 15, 2023 21:52:44 GMT
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Post by blue4life on Dec 15, 2023 21:52:44 GMT
Anything Jim Green Banksy?
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Post by jimgreen on Dec 15, 2023 22:40:23 GMT
The restriction is still in place and is likely to remain so until January.
Don’t think it’s wise to go into detail in this forum, but suffice to say it is frustrating and there has been some push back on a couple of points that relate to more general stadium safety that need to be ironed out.
We share the disappointment.
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Post by banksy on Dec 15, 2023 22:54:45 GMT
The restriction is still in place and is likely to remain so until January. Don’t think it’s wise to go into detail in this forum, but suffice to say it is frustrating and there has been some push back on a couple of points that relate to more general stadium safety that need to be ironed out. We share the disappointment. ...and to confirm that we're ready to go on the increased ticketing side of things as soon as the green light is lit. We share your frustrations. Jeff
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Post by Lobster on Dec 16, 2023 0:13:41 GMT
I won't pretend I understand how this SAG works, but the image they portray of themselves is terrible. Whenever they're involved it's always for punitive reasons. They seem to have complete authority yet are at the same time unanswerable, faceless and anonymous, and it's always left to the club to communicate their decisions.
I've never complained about the reduced capacity. I felt we should suck it up and learn from it. But we were told it would be reviewed in November, so for what reasons has nothing changed? Apart from one stupid chant that wasn't a safety issue anyway, there have been no incidents this season as far as I know, even though Banbury and their brats did their best to get one out of us. The club and supporters should be praised for their response over the last six months but instead we get prolonged sanction without explanation. It reaches the point where it's just hurting a local business and community asset.
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Post by Blockhead on Dec 16, 2023 0:50:50 GMT
Think it's a given that the SAG will kick it's heels on any decision wherever they can.
Easier than making a decision and being even slightly accountable (where is the accountability as a public body??)
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Post by Anders on Dec 16, 2023 1:51:32 GMT
Said it before, but SAG’s don’t have much power over most clubs, but they do over a fan owned club where the council own the stadium. In one way it’s a blessing and in another it’s a curse. They are effectively our landlords.
Annoys me to hell that one week they want us to jump through the most unbelievable hoops but then the next don't care in the slightest about us going away to visit the biggest crab holes in the country. It’s all a con.
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Post by noddy on Dec 16, 2023 2:00:39 GMT
The restriction is still in place and is likely to remain so until January. Don’t think it’s wise to go into detail in this forum, but suffice to say it is frustrating and there has been some push back on a couple of points that relate to more general stadium safety that need to be ironed out. We share the disappointment. Appreciate your reply Jim, obviously can sense your frustration in what you can't say on here publicly. As a fanbase am sure we would appreciate an official statement through the club as to what the above issues are regarding the "general safety issues" and how they can be rectified to satisfy the SAG moving forward to increase the current capacity.
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